Public Accounts Committee on April 11th, 2024

[Gina Wilson]

In this large country of Canada, which has many aspects of difficult weather that impact its housing stock, the issue of mould is more prominent in first nations communities due to the significant overcrowding that exists, as well as the harsh weather, particularly in remote and northern communities.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

You were talking earlier about the shift to focus more on self-determination. How has the shift to the first nations-led approach been playing out in the community, and are there any examples that come to mind that illustrate the difference now that the shift is taking place?

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Part of it is being a partner at the table, but being one of a number of partners, because there is no way that any one party can solve this issue alone.

We see lots of examples. In Alberta, we see Cenovus dedicating $50 million to building housing in four first nations and two Métis communities that are located around its operations. ISC has helped support that project by providing over $5 million to enable infrastructure in lot servicing, subdivision development, engineering supports and those types of things to enable those houses to be built.

It's in that type of partnership that we are supporting the nation in building those economic relationships with other parties and exploring monetization. The Chippewas of the Thames, for example, now have a mortgage program on reserve, as the deputy mentioned earlier, so that those who are interested in owning a home and entering into a mortgage relationship can do so, which has not traditionally been done on reserve.

There's a lot of groundbreaking work that is happening, while acknowledging, of course, that there is so much work left to do. We're trying to change that paradigm of funding going out 100% up front to do a build in, say, two months over the summer, and looking at ways to extend that and take advantage of the money markets and those types of things.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That is the time.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madame Auditor General, in response to my last question, you confirmed that the approach needs to change completely. Before coming back to that point, I would like to ask you a question about funding.

In exhibit 2.5 of your report, I see a table showing that the funding provided for the next 15 years does not seem to align with the Indigenous population. I just want to understand what's going on. Do you know why everything is overfunded? Was this funding based on needs?

[Karen Hogan]

We included the table you referenced in the report to illustrate our conclusion, which was that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation did not use updated census information. It did not take into account demographic changes happening all over the country over a period of about 20 years. That's why we outlined cases of underfunding and overfunding. It's actually due to erroneous formulas and information.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Hogan.

Mr. Tremblay, what is your answer to that? Why wasn’t the latest census data used? Is there a logical explanation?

[Michel Tremblay]

As I already said, the formula in question is subject to a tripartite agreement between the Assembly of First Nations, Indigenous Services Canada and the CMHC. In our response to the Auditor General’s report, we said that we would verify it and work to change the formula, but we will not do so unilaterally.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Very well.

I will now come back to the necessary change in approach. I’d like to hear a bit more from Ms. Wilson on that. The Auditor General also confirmed that a radical change of approach is required.

Ms. Wilson, you are the deputy minister, and so you have a certain amount of power. Above all, you’ve had the leisure of occupying this position for several years, without having to win elections. That means you can think about Indigenous populations in the medium and long term. That means it’s up to you to consider the complete paradigm change that is required. Will you do so?

[Gina Wilson]

Thank you very much.

It has been about a year and a half that I have been in the position, but I certainly appreciate the question.

As I said, I am open to transformations. For example, I have great admiration for the efforts deployed by chief Lance Hayman and the Native Commercial Credit Corporation. The objective is to create on‑reserve loan-granting initiatives. In my case, I have the means to buy my own home. People living on reserve have the means to pay a mortgage.

I think that home ownership on reserve by first nations people is something to explore.

I can afford a home, but I don't have the right financing tools. Financing tools are a hope. Not everyone agrees with that.

It may not be the most popular opinion, but it is mine.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais is next. You have the floor for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll begin with a quote: “They're asking us to take on liabilities that they create by chronic underfunding and leaving infrastructure on reserve to rot, and now they want us to take over with no commitments for ongoing operations and maintenance.”

I'm sure you could probably guess who said that. Many would wonder, of course, which first nation it was. Almost any of them could make a very similar statement, I'm certain. However, this again comes from Treaty 6, Treaty 7 and Treaty 8, which you've cited as being partners toward reconciliation.

It's your responsibility to ensure the “transfer” of responsibility as Mr. Barbosa mentioned, rather than “devolution”. However, this position you're taking is causing harm. I hope you understand that. The convenient excuse of taking a very legitimate expression of an indigenous nation's right to self-determination should not and must not result in the material loss to first nations communities, but that is the fact.

Even worse, the trust between ISC—the Crown—and indigenous people has gotten worse. They go on to suggest that they don't even know what the priorities of this government are. What are Canada's priorities for first nations? Is it housing on reserve? Is it eliminating drinking water advisories? Is it to prevent reoccurrences? Is it first nations infrastructure? They don't know, because you're not acting.

You're sitting on your hands, waiting for someone else to raise their hand and say that they need help. That isn't the approach that first nations deserve. That is not the approach that indigenous people in this country are entitled to.

They deserve a government that acknowledges its responsibility to the treaties, first and foremost. If you need an example of what transfer of responsibility looks like, look at the treaties of our ancestors, which made very clear how these things were to be done.

Instead of acknowledging the relationship that first nations people largely demanded of the Crown, the Indian Act and the Department of Indigenous Services Act have displaced much of that responsibility to your ministry. Now your ministry is saying that they can't take that responsibility until the first nations do specific things. What is it going to take to ensure that there is not only money but fair treatment and understanding of their concerns?

I'll start with Mr. Tremblay, particularly on the formula.

[Michel Tremblay]

Mr. Chair, the formula, as I mentioned, is part of our tripartite agreement. We've committed to reviewing it as a formalized part of the response to the Auditor General's report.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Why didn't you do that before?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, your time is up. However, I think you wanted an answer from someone else.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I did, but can I get him to answer that?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

No, you're kind of in a catch-22 here.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'd like to hear from Ms. Wilson.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You can come back to that, but we will hear from Ms. Wilson. I will meet you halfway.

[Gina Wilson]

Mr. Chair, we are certainly not taking the position to transfer programs and services if first nations are not well equipped, well supported and well funded to do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next up, we have Mr. Brock joining us. You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

My sole question will be to Indigenous Services officials.

I am the member for Brantford—Brant. I proudly represent two indigenous nations, the Six Nations of the Grand River and Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation. I trust at least someone on this panel has probably visited my riding from time to time.

I want to talk about an issue that has been plaguing me in my tenure as a parliamentarian, and it plagued my predecessor, Mr. Phil McColeman, as well.

I wrote a letter to Minister Hajdu on December 21, 2021. It read: “The Gaweni:yo school is a federally funded elementary and secondary school located on Six Nations of the Grand River territory. For the past 30 years, the school has provided instruction to its students in the Mohawk and Cayuga language in grade 8, at which time English is introduced. There has been an application for funding in progress for several years for a new school to be built.

“The school is currently operating out of a privately owned lacrosse arena and their need for a new building is urgent. The landlord has been extremely accommodating. However, the lease is subject to annual renewal. Therefore, the space is not secure and, most importantly, certainly not adequate for a school. The classrooms are cramped with no running water and the majority do not have windows.

“The language instruction not only provides the students with an education, but also the foundation for their identity. No doubt you will agree that providing financial support for the construction of the school will also help to fulfill our collective commitment towards truth and reconciliation, most specifically, the preservation and revitalization of aboriginal languages and cultures.

“Minister, in short, the current facility is not acceptable and, more importantly, not safe for the students and staff. They have been without a proper school for over 30 years. It's been long enough. The school has the support of Six Nations council and a shovel-ready project, which should be funded.

“I look forward to your reply.”

Well, I didn't get a reply. I had to follow up with Minister Hajdu on April 22, 2022, reminding her that my staff reached out to her office on March 10, 14 and 28, with no response.

The cost to properly fund this project is now just under $30 million. When we were asking for federal funding, the cost was just over $10 million. Because of Justin Trudeau's inflationary policies, we have now almost tripled the cost. Justin Trudeau has spent close to $21 billion on consultants, but can't seem to find the money to fund this particular school.

Today I had the chair, Ruby Jacobs, crying in my constituency office and asking what it takes to finally get the Government of Canada to recognize the need to introduce the school, to have the funding there, to have the students learn in a proper environment?

What are you going to tell my constituents and the parents of the children? What are you going to tell the chair, who was crying? When are we going to receive the funding?

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Thank you for the question.

I am aware of the situation and I will certainly follow up with my colleagues in education.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

That is not good enough. We've been waiting for seven years for this government to write a cheque. That is not an appropriate answer. When are they going to receive funding?

Two and a half years ago, Minister Miller attended on site. We had the press there. We had all kinds of stakeholders there. We were thinking that he was going to deliver that long-awaited cheque. All that then-Minister Miller had to say was he was sorry; he didn't have the best news for us. He said for us to be patient, that they were working on it, that there were other priorities in his department, but we will eventually receive the funding. That was almost two and a half years ago.

When will you write the cheque?

[Joanne Wilkinson]

It's not my cheque to write, but I will follow up with the officials under whose program this fits.

We do run schools at Six Nations. That is not the only school at Six Nations, of course.