Public Accounts Committee on April 18th, 2024

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I have a point of order.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Shanahan, you are next.

What is your point of order, citing the Standing Orders, please?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

It's about relevance.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You know I give latitude. This is an issue this committee has studied.

I would ask the room to come to order, please.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Can I finish, John?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes, you have the floor, and we have been so good on the points of order this time.

Mr. Stewart, you have 30 seconds.

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

From the blueprints, we learned that the $8-million barn does have a car wash bay, a laundry room, two washrooms and, believe it or not, a doghouse—yes, a doghouse. Whose dog is it registered to? Who owns it? What kind is it?

Have you considered doing any further audits of the super-secretive National Capital Commission, especially in light of this new information?

[Karen Hogan]

I believe that in previous testimony I've told the committee that this is a capital project that the NCC's board approved in their annual plan, and we don't usually target individual capital asset acquisitions within an organization.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much for that merciful answer.

Ms. Shanahan, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to thank the Auditor General and her entire team again for appearing in front of our committee and for the wisdom of the responses we get. Chair, I think you'll agree that whatever we hear from the Auditor General, whether it's through the reports or in answer to questions that members bring up, is measured and balanced. There is a lot of work behind those answers. They're not gratuitous. They're not looking for sensationalist headlines. They're not trying to mislead Canadians. We're getting the right time of day when we hear from the team at the Auditor General's office and from the Auditor General herself.

Along that line, Auditor General, among the things you've talked about today was this issue of chronic underfunding of IT projects, which has led to big trouble, as we've seen, later on, with problematic contracts later on and this idea that being penny-wise and pound foolish is somehow the way to handle public finances. We've heard this time and time again, and we've seen this in previous governments: Cheap gets what cheap buys, and this use of public taxpayers' money is just a disservice to Canadians.

You also talked a little earlier about how piling on regulations is not necessarily the way to go, nor is doubling the work being done by different agencies, your office, the ombud or the RCMP, but Conservatives and other members have been quick to criticize any institution or office that does not push a narrative they support. Can you confirm for Canadians here today that your office is free from political interference?

[Karen Hogan]

I can tell you that the foundational element of my office is being independent, and that's why it's important that I can choose whom we audit, when we audit and what we audit. I will always ensure that we have that right, and it is what makes the Auditor General's office unique.

I'm always happy to listen to the concerns of parliamentarians, whether they be from the House or from the Senate, as we consider what to audit, but it is really important that we not be influenced. During my tenure, I can tell you that we have freely chosen what we have audited.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

But how does it affect your messaging, Auditor General, when your words are taken out of context time and time again? We can think of any number of reports we've had here, the latest, of course, being on ArriveCAN and the fact that you did, in an earlier report, find that there was enduring value, that there was value for money, in replacing a paper-based system. In the latest report, of course, you found that there were gross inadequacies and that documentation and rules cannot be thrown out the window.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ask your question, please, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Can you talk to us about how you address that kind of misinformation around your reports?

[Karen Hogan]

Once my reports are made public, they are on the public record. Any individual can use them as they would like.

This is why I appreciate that when we come to committee, especially here in the public accounts committee, we appear when departments appear, so that we can tell you what we found and make sure that we can articulate clearly what our report says, if it's being misunderstood.

We strive very hard to make our reports easy to understand, but there is always the chance of someone misinterpreting something.

I appreciate the number of committee appearances we have before this committee, before other House committees and before the Senate so that we can help everyone understand our work and they can hold government to account.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

That concludes our witnesses.

I want to thank Ms. Hogan and her team from the Office of the Auditor General.

We'll just be 30 seconds. You're welcome to leave, if you like, but we'll be really quick here.

I'm going to ask members for their attention, please. This is a vote on the estimates.

OFFICE OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL

Vote 1—Program expenditures..........$114,689,350

(Vote 1 agreed to)

Shall I report vote 1 under the Office of the Auditor General of Canada, less the amount voted in interim supply, to the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Thanks very much for coming. We'll see you after the recess week.

Without further ado, I adjourn this meeting.