Public Accounts Committee on April 17th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I agree with much of what Ms. Yip said.

In fact, Mr. Desjarlais, I did send a letter on Friday, reminding the department that the committee takes the motion very seriously and urging it to get the documents in this week.

I'm just going to remind you all—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

On that point, Chair—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

As a courtesy, I'll let you go ahead, but be brief, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Chair, for your mercy here.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It's a courtesy. We're not at that level yet.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I just want to thank you for that letter. I think, however, if we don't see the production of those documents by the end of this week, that we should make very certain that we inform them that we will have this heard in the House.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay—you're all kind of jumping to where I was going to go, to what I was going to say. I'm going to leave it on this note.

This committee is welcome to take this up this Thursday or a week from Monday.

Members, I will let you decide that among yourselves. I am your servant. There will be three options for this committee to consider either this Thursday or on Monday. Those are, one, to accept the department's—the government's—reasoning; two, to try to seek an acceptable compromise—and I won't speak to what I think that compromise for members would be—and three, to reject the reasons the department gives if it does not produce the document and then consider turning it over to the House of Commons.

Those are the avenues we will have. I think we should take them up at a different time.

Mr. Genuis, I would really like to hear from the witnesses, so, as a courtesy, be very quick. I'm not going to allow a speech on this because—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

All right. I'll be quick.

I just want to clarify something, maybe with the clerk. My understanding is that there's a time required for the preparation of that report to the House, so I think we should have that report ready to go, so that if we decide—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I will work on that behind the scenes, but I'm going to be looking to all of you for the timing. I'm hearing Thursday and I'm hearing Monday, so I'm going to be coming back to you and I'd like to know what that is, because I don't want to disrupt witnesses coming on Thursday. If I can give them notice, I will, but if we can proceed with committee business, we will.

I'm going to endeavour to juggle all these balls by working with you. If necessary, we'll be ready to move, but committee members might decide to wait until Monday.

I'm getting conflicting signals here.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you. Chair, I also want to provide a notice of motion on the other matter:

That the committee report to the House that it calls on the Auditor General to conduct a fulsome audit of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, with a focus on foreign interference.

I am providing that as a notice of motion. I think that reflects our conversation, but, of course, we can wordsmith that later on.

That's it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Ms. Hogan, welcome back. You have the floor for five minutes.

I want to express my gratitude to all the witnesses. Welcome to the workings of Parliament.

Over to you, Ms. Hogan. It's nice to see you again, Auditor.

[Karen Hogan, Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on accessible transportation for persons with disabilities, which was tabled in the House of Commons on March 27.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.

Joining me today are Milan Duvnjak, the principal who was responsible for the audit, and Susie Fortier, the director who led the audit team.

This audit looked at whether Via Rail, the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority and the Canadian Transportation Agency worked to identify, remove and prevent barriers for travellers with disabilities.

In 2019 and 2020, more than one million persons with disabilities who travelled on a federally regulated mode of transportation faced a barrier. We found that all three organizations had identified some barriers in taking steps to improve accessibility. Via Rail held consultations with persons with disabilities while designing its new fleet. It also consulted on its accessibility plan and training programs, as did the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority.

However, improvements were still needed in many important areas. For example, online information was not fully accessible. According to Statistics Canada, this is one of the barriers most frequently experienced by travellers with disabilities. Poor accessibility means that information is difficult to find or is incorrect for someone using a screen reader. This makes it difficult for persons with disabilities to plan or book a trip by themselves.

We also found that staff and management did not always complete accessibility training. This can affect the service provided to travellers with disabilities and their companions.

As the organization responsible for enforcing accessibility regulations in the transportation industry, the Canadian Transportation Agency identified accessibility barriers through its inspections, and it worked with transportation service providers to remove some. However, we found that the agency conducted few inspections, and it could request complaint data from service providers only in certain circumstances. Consistent access to this data would help the agency improve its oversight. Meanwhile, the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority and Via Rail focused on resolving individual complaints, and they missed opportunities to use complaint data to better understand travellers' lived experiences.

Every person has a right to participate fully and equally in society. If access to these rights is delayed or denied, the impact is that some members of society are excluded or left behind. To further improve the accessibility of trains, planes and other federally regulated modes of transportation, responsible organizations need to broaden their consultation with persons with disabilities, make their online content fully accessible, and use complaint data to identify, learn about and prevent barriers. This work is necessary to achieve the federal government's goal of a barrier-free Canada by 2040.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening statement. We'd be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

We'll go now to the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority.

Ms. Semaan, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Nada Semaan, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Air Transport Security Authority]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, and thank you for inviting me to speak with you today.

My name is Nada Semaan, as the chair mentioned, and I am honoured to be appearing before this committee for the first time as the new president and CEO of CATSA. I'm joined today by my two colleagues, Rhoda Boyd, who is the general manager of communications, and Louise Alberelli, general manager of operations programs.

As you are aware, the Canadian Air Transportation Security Authority is responsible for securing specific elements of the air transportation system. We have four mandated activities: pre-board screening, hold baggage screening, non-passenger screening, and restricted area identity cards. We deliver the mandate of security screening at 89 designated airports across the country through a third party screening contractor model.

Our goal is to provide professional, effective and consistent security screening across the country, combined with a focus on service excellence, and I can assure you that accessibility is a key priority in achieving that goal.

We are pleased that the OAG audit acknowledged the efforts we have already made to identify, remove and prevent transportation barriers for persons with disabilities.

CATSA is proud of the work it's done in this area. We strive to provide a barrier-free security screening experience for those who work at or transit through Canada's designated airports.

Ongoing improvement is always at the forefront of CATSA's efforts. With this in mind, we saw the Office of the Auditor General's audit as an opportunity to look at what additional steps we could take to better meet the needs of those we serve.

We agreed with the recommendations made as a result of the audit, which provided additional measures we can undertake to remove barriers for persons with disabilities.

Specifically, the report highlighted three areas for improvement for CATSA. One is to meet web accessibility standards. The second is the timeliness of accessibility training and further consultations with persons with disabilities related to that training. The final one is to develop and implement a strategy to better analyze complaint data.

In response to the first recommendation, we have taken critical steps towards ensuring our online content meets web accessibility standards. I'm pleased to announce that on March 29, 2023, CATSA updates the online content management system for its website to a new, fully accessible version. We have now turned our attention to the manual work required to update forms, visuals and other aspects of our website, with each step contributing to an incremental improvement level of accessibility as we move forward.

The second recommendation made to CATSA was with regard to the timeliness of accessibility training, and I am pleased to confirm that all screening officers and additional management and decision-makers identified to receive disability awareness training have now done so. Going forward, we have implemented a process to monitor and ensure that all screening officers receive accessibility training prior to starting work with the public, that CATSA management and decision-makers are immediately offered accessibility training upon joining the organization, and that they complete it in a set time.

This second recommendation, on training, also highlighted the importance of consulting persons with disabilities with regard to our teaching methods. CATSA has been consulting persons with disabilities since 2014, with the goal of improving screening processes, operational procedures and training material for screening contractor personnel. However, consulting on teaching methods has posed a challenge with regard to the disclosure of security-sensitive information. That said, while the challenge still exists, we are committed to finding an approach that meets the recommendations given to us while ensuring we also respect the regulatory constraints surrounding the disclosure of this information.

In response to the final recommendation, on improving analysis of CATSA's complaint data, work is under way to develop and implement a strategy in consultation with various teams within CATSA, as well as with persons with disabilities. We will also ensure that the strategy aligns with the federal data measurement strategy for accessibility of 2022-27.

As noted by the Office of the Auditor General, we currently evaluate and process complaints individually. This allows us to review complaints in real time, share information and feedback with our frontline operations team and provide training to determine immediate action.

We agree that we could improve the ways we analyze complaint data. We've already begun work in this area. We're currently exploring how we categorize complaint data as well as which processes we can adopt to support trend analysis and reporting so we can enhance our current real-time approach.

CATSA remains committed to aligning with government priorities and listening to and engaging with passengers, airport workers, screening officers, the CATSA workforce and, in all honesty, all who wish to work with us, to identify, prevent and eliminate accessibility barriers, both current and future.

The actions we are taking today are working toward a more accessible and barrier-free tomorrow.

Thank you again for the opportunity to be here and to present to you today. We will be happy to take questions after.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, and welcome.

We're turning now to the Canadian Transportation Agency and France Pégeot.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[France Pégeot, Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the committee for the invitation to appear today.

With me is Tom Oommen, director general of the analysis and outreach branch at the Canadian Transportation Agency.

The agency's mandate is based on the Canada Transportation Act and contributes to the national transportation policy, which strives for an accessible, competitive, economic and efficient national transportation system that serves the needs of participants and communities, and in which people trust.

We have three main roles. We help ensure that the national transportation system runs efficiently and smoothly in the interests of all Canadians, particularly in the areas of rail and marine. We provide consumer protection for air passengers. Finally, we protect the human right of persons with disabilities to accessible transportation.

The agency has a dual role. First, we are the economic regulator of the transportation industry. We make and implement regulations. We issue determinations, for example on Canadian ownership of airlines; and we monitor and enforce legislation and regulations.

Second, we are an administrative tribunal. As such, we provide access to justice by resolving various disputes, informally and formally through adjudication, between regulated industry and its users.

Accessibility has always been and continues to be a priority. I would like to start by acknowledging that barriers do still exist for persons with disabilities in the transportation sector and that there is still work to be done. With that being said, I believe that progress has been made.

Following two years of consultation, the accessible transportation for persons with disabilities regulations came into force between 2020 and 2022. These regulations integrated two previously existing regulations and six voluntary codes of practice and cover large transportation service providers. The agency is currently working on proposed regulations that would apply to small ones.

The agency also developed the accessible transportation planning and reporting regulations, which came into force at the end of 2021. These are designed to ensure that the various members of the transportation industry plan how they intend to improve accessibility, in consultation with persons with disabilities, and demonstrate how this translates into concrete results.

To ensure continuous communications with persons with disabilities, we have established an accessibility advisory committee. This group, which meets at least twice a year, brings together members of disability rights groups and also industry. This forum lets us get input on projects, priorities and regulations, and provides us with an opportunity to share information on our activities.

The agency encourages everyone to bring forward complaints if they believe that a service provider hasn't respected its accessibility-related obligations. In most cases—97% of the time—the agency is able to help resolve those complaints through informal processes such as mediation. All accessibility complaints are prioritized, and I am pleased to inform you that we currently have no backlog with respect to accessibility complaints. We monitor compliance with the regulations and investigate all incidents involving people with disabilities that are brought to our attention, whether it be via media, for example, or other sources.

Beyond the specifics of our regulations, I believe it's also crucial for transportation service providers to instill a culture of accessibility at all levels of their organizations. There is an opportunity currently to ensure that new and existing staff are provided quality training on accessibility, and that each and every individual is imbued with a culture of respect. I emphasize this at all my meetings with industry executives.

We are proud of the work we're doing at the agency, and we recognize that action must be taken beyond our authority to eliminate barriers in transportation. Therefore, we have taken a leadership role on the international stage. For example, to improve the handling of mobility aids, we have led three research projects in collaboration with the National Research Council and Transport Canada. Our work has been an important contribution to recent International Air Transportation Association guidelines on mobility aids.

Additionally, the agency, representing Canada, is chairing an ICAO—International Civil Aviation Organization—initiative to develop a compendium of the accessibility statutes, regulations and best practices of various countries. The compendium can be used as a reference for countries looking to develop or improve their regulations, and it will inform ICAO's direction on improving accessibility.

Throughout the audit, we have collaborated fully with the Auditor General's representatives, and we welcome their findings and recommendations. We're committed to implementing the plan of action identified in the report.

Thank you very much. I will be pleased to answer questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We're turning now to Via Rail Canada. Marie-Claude Cardin, you have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Marie-Claude Cardin, Chief Financial Officer, VIA Rail Canada Inc.]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to committee members, for allowing us to present to you all the work that Via Rail is doing to provide a barrier-free travel experience for our passengers, from booking to destination.

We are proud of our efforts to date, as recognized by the Auditor General, and our teams will continue to carry out our many initiatives in this area with dedication and professionalism.

With me today is Catherine Langlois, senior advisor on universal accessibility.

Via Rail is committed to being the most accessible national and intercity carrier in Canada. That is why we have undertaken several major initiatives over the past few years to create an environment in which every person with a disability can travel independently and with confidence. This means we are working every day to improve our services so that all of our passengers can enjoy the same quality experience for which Via Rail is so often recognized.

Today, I want to share with you the plans we have in place to remove any remaining barriers and to make Via Rail a fully accessible mobility option for Canadians. Please allow me to explain some of our initiatives.

First of all, Via Rail benefits from a unique expertise since the establishment of a universal accessibility advisory committee in 2021. This committee is made up of organizations representing a wide range of people with disabilities. Their advice is invaluable and helps to better determine the needs of passengers and identify the criteria for success so that Via Rail can continue to be the most accessible carrier in Canada. When Via Rail launches a new project, the members of this committee are informed and, depending on the nature of the project, are invited to become involved to varying degrees.

Via Rail recently began marketing the first trainsets of our brand-new fully accessible fleet of trains to serve the Quebec-Windsor corridor. I am personally proud of the inclusive approach we have taken to provide an experience that best meets the needs of people with disabilities and their companions. Some of our advisory committee members have already been invited to experience it.

In addition, Via Rail has developed and launched a comprehensive accessibility training program. This training is offered to both senior management and frontline staff. To date, all members of our senior management team have completed this training, with the exception of two new executives who began their roles in April 2023. This training will be updated on a regular basis to ensure that our entire workforce has a good understanding of how our organization operates to provide a fully accessible experience for our passengers. Training material will also be reviewed in collaboration with representatives from partner organizations to address any gaps in the teaching methods used.

As for the management of complaints lodged by our passengers, since last February we have been the subject of an extended review by all of the business units concerned, which are in the best position to make the required changes. We are also committed to developing and implementing a strategy to improve the analysis of complaint data on an annual basis. Detailed quarterly reports on accessibility complaints will be produced and forwarded to our experts, who will work to remedy the situation. Progress reports will then be presented to our advisory committee members.

With the ultimate goal of providing a fully accessible experience at every stage of the customer journey, the accessibility of Via Rail's digital assets—such as our online presence and reservation system—has also been upgraded to provide significant improvements to our passengers.

Via Rail is excited to launch a new reservation system in the near future. This new system will be a critical step in the fully accessible experience we are committed to providing to our passengers. At the same time, we are modernizing other important information systems, including the content of our web pages. We are committed to ensuring that our content meets accessibility standards in this area, and to that end, we will have our digital assets evaluated by an accessibility specialist and will implement all recommendations from that annual review.

I am confident that the measures presented today will address the issues raised by the Auditor General so that Via Rail can better understand and meet the needs of its passengers.

In closing, I would like to reiterate Via Rail's commitment to being the most accessible carrier in Canada. We are proud of the work we have done and are committed to continuing all efforts, as we work with the government and all our partners to create a barrier-free society for Canadians.

We will be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

We will now start the first round. The first four members will have six minutes each.

Mr. McCauley, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

Witnesses, thanks very much.

AG Hogan, thank you for your patience as we went through other business.

I want to start with you, AG Hogan, for a couple of questions. When you talk about the online not being “fully accessible”, could you walk me through what exactly you mean by that? Is it mostly around the visually impaired, or...? Is there an online standard that perhaps other companies are doing and we should follow to make it so that we can fix this right away?

[Karen Hogan]

There are accessibility requirements in regulations that came out as issued by Canada. It was to those that we held the two organizations. We looked at Via's website, as well as the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority's website. We found that there was a gap in not meeting the accessibility requirements in both: about 17% of them were not met on the Via site, and for CATSA it was about 15%. They would range from minor things to more important issues.

I have a couple of examples that I could give you.

When we looked at trying to look at schedules with an e-reader, an individual would get the wrong departure time. That's just inaccurate information, which doesn't allow an individual with a disability to plan a trip on their own or book it by themselves.

A second example would be that information was just very difficult to find. If you were travelling with a service dog and you wanted to know what to expect as you try to clear airport security or where the relief areas are in train stations, it was very difficult to locate, again making it very discouraging or very complicated for individuals with disabilities to travel.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

When you talk about the training that is required or the training that is needed, is there an industry standard that perhaps these departments should be following, or are the departments kind of creating it as they go?

[Karen Hogan]

Again, there are regulations about the content and what should be in the training, but some of the decisions around the content should also be determined in consultation with individuals with disabilities. When we reviewed the content against the list of mandatory elements, we found a few gaps, but more importantly, we noted that there was a gap in the consultation about some of the teaching methods that should be there.

The important thing to note is that the individuals who actually are the on-the-ground service had really good compliance around training at both organizations. It was more at the management level that they were late or hadn't taken it at all. Having management complete that training is just as important, because they set how policies and regulations are implemented and whether they should be adjusted. They also do the supervision of employees. It's critical that everyone complete it, and I believe that both organizations made that commitment: We heard in opening remarks that some of that training has happened already.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have just two last questions.

Are you satisfied with the training that is available? You audited the training. Are you satisfied with it, or do they have to go back to square one and relaunch their training? Is it just a matter of not having rolled it out for enough people...?

[Karen Hogan]

We didn't look at all the teaching methods. We looked at whether it met the minimum requirements of what areas to cover. Other than the small gaps we found, we are satisfied that it met the requirements, but then it's up to individuals taking the training and then applying it, and that's where supervisors come into play. We also think that the Canadian Transportation Agency could inspect the actual delivery of services, which would show whether or not the training was fruitful.