Evidence of meeting #69 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Carine Grand-Jean
Edward Johnson  Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to the 69th meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, April 24, 2023, the committee resumes its study of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation.

I'd now like to welcome our witness. From the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation, we have Mr. Edward Johnson, chair of the board of directors.

Thank you for joining us today.

Mr. Johnson, before I give you your five minutes, I think I have a....

Yes, go ahead, Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to read you an excerpt from House of Commons Procedure and Practice, and then I'd like you to confirm something for me.

It says the following: "It is generally accepted that witnesses have a duty to speak the truth regardless of whether or not their testimony is given under oath. The decision as to the swearing-in of witnesses is left entirely to the discretion of the committee.'' It goes on to specify that: "Although the testimony of a witness before a parliamentary committee is protected by parliamentary privilege, if a committee determines that a witness has wilfully lied or misled it, the matter could be reported to the House. If the House finds that the witness has deliberately misled the committee, the witness could be found in contempt of the House whether the witness is under oath or not."

Can you confirm to me that this would apply where appropriate?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

That is my understanding, whenever anyone appears.

I'll turn to the clerk. I'm getting the affirmative. That is correct. That is a standard rule or regulation that oversees all business before the committee.

On this same point of order, go ahead, Mrs Shanahan.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

I would like to review with the clerk, then, the usual procedure when witnesses are invited.

Is that not the kind of thing that's discussed with them, so it's clear that this is the duty of the witness when they come before Parliament? Could the clerk explain a bit about how witnesses are invited and how we do that in a respectful and professional manner?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Wait one moment, please.

Instead of trying to repeat it, I will ask the clerk to state it.

3:40 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Carine Grand-Jean

Basically, when witnesses are invited to appear at the committee, they are coming with the will to say the truth. We are working on the basis that they are saying the truth.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Okay. I think this is resolved.

Mr. Johnson, I apologize for that. You have the floor for five minutes. If you need a few more seconds, I allow witnesses to finish up their thoughts. I'm diligent with the clock, but I will endeavour not to ever cut you off.

It's over to you, sir.

3:40 p.m.

Edward Johnson Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

Thank you, Chairman. I'll try to stay within that constraint.

The Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation is a non-partisan charitable scholarship foundation that was created in 2002 with broad cross-party support in the House of Commons. The first board of directors included Bill Davis, Roy Romanow and Peter Lougheed. It was granted a $125-million endowment by the government.

Since then, it has spent some $95 million on programs, plus approximately another $20 million to $25 million on delivering those programs, on the administrative side. In total, that's an amount that's pretty close to the original endowment. During that time, we have provided 295 doctoral scholarships, plus mentorships and fellowships—88 fellowships and 163 mentorships. We achieved that without touching the capital, which now stands at $145 million. We have not asked for a cent of new money from the government in 21 years.

Today we rank up there with Rhodes, MacArthur and Fulbright as a sought-after scholarship. Many of our scholars say their involvement was life changing.

Our directors and members are all volunteers. The Trudeau family has no financial interest whatsoever in the foundation.

The foundation, over the past 21 years, is doing what it was supposed to do with the taxpayers' money. In tight compliance with our funding agreement, we deliver a very simple, four-point program: scholarships, mentorships, fellowships and a public interaction program. We are meant to make a significant contribution to the future of Canada, and we have delivered to the letter.

The foundation has been subjected to unwarranted and unfair attacks, which began in late February, revolving around a donation totalling $140,000 from a Chinese Canadian entity. These put huge pressure on the board of directors. In this context, let me note on record for this committee that we were never offered $1 million, and we never received any red flags from CSIS.

It's important that I respond to some earlier testimony by our former president and three former directors at the House ethics committee.

At no time did any director receive a legal opinion that they were in a conflict of interest involving the 2014 to 2017 Chinese donation.

In my case, I didn't need a legal opinion to tell me what I instinctively knew. I was on the board at the time of those donations, so I should not be involved in the oversight of any outside review of them, although my potential conflict of interest might have been purely perceived, not legal. At no time did I resist or attempt to narrow such an independent review.

Indeed, within 10 days of the first news story, I urged that we needed an independent review and that it should be overseen not by management and not by me, but by a special committee of three directors who had had no involvement whatsoever in the foundation in the years 2014 to 2017. I phoned every board member individually in mid-March and discussed this. On March 24, I remarked to our lawyers how supportive our directors were of our president and me in the trying circumstances of intense national attention.

I proposed oversight by an independent committee at the full board meeting on March 31. As to my eligibility to chair that meeting, there is no doubt that my interests aligned perfectly with the interests of the foundation. I wanted an independent review and so did the rest of the board. It was my duty, as chair, to preside.

There were two outside lawyers from two firms advising the board at that meeting. Both said that they had not given opinions on conflicts of interest. Neither they nor any director questioned my legitimacy to chair or to vote at that meeting. At no point was there a motion for any directors to recuse themselves, nor was there any refusal to do so by any director.

Over the subsequent week, by Easter Thursday, a consensus emerged among most directors, in my view, that indeed the outside review should be overseen by a special committee of three, as I had originally recommended, and that the review should not report to management. To my utter surprise and disappointment, the board resigned on Easter Monday—April 10.

Knowing that those resignations would stall any outside review for weeks, I wrote the Auditor General on April 14, three days after the board resignations, to ask her to investigate all aspects of the receipt and handling of these donations by the foundation.

Finally, for our scholars, mentors and fellows, I want to say a special word to them and to our marvellous team at the foundation and to our community. Looking ahead, the Pierre Elliot Trudeau Foundation will continue to provide its outstanding academic program. Thanks to the volunteers on our finance committee, we continue to be well financed. Our excellent team is working ahead on the announcement of our next cohort and planned leadership development events.

It's an exciting future heading into our 23rd year.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you.

My apologies for the alarm—that was not my intention—but I have a new stopwatch. I'm going to endeavour to fix that so I don't interrupt. MPs know that I will stop them when the buzzer goes, but I will allow the witness to finish answering the question.

Colleagues, my attempt this morning is to get through three or four rounds, so I will be watching the clock particularly closely. That takes us to just under the hour and 15 minutes that we have scheduled.

Without further ado, Mr. Brock, welcome to committee.

You have the floor, for six minutes, please.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to committee, Mr. Johnson.

You may or may not remember, but we had an opportunity to talk to each other just over a month ago.

I want to basically start off by completing the circle, so to speak. I left you to consider following through on a couple of undertakings. Do you remember the exchange that you and I had, sir?

3:50 p.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

Edward Johnson

I do indeed, and the foundation responded the next day—I hope, adequately—to the three requests.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay, I haven't seen that correspondence. I'm not impugning your credibility or character, sir, by any stretch. It may have gone to the committee, but it didn't actually come to my attention.

Are you able to elaborate as to the details that I asked you to consider?

3:50 p.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

Edward Johnson

Yes, indeed.

If you'll allow me, I can read a relatively short email, which was in response to your questions.

There's a recital at the beginning to the clerk of the committee.

Please find below the information requested:

On March 1, 2023, upon the initiative of the President and CEO Pascale Fournier and with the approval of the Board's Executive Committee, the Foundation sent a cheque in the amount of $140,000 to reimburse the donation that had been received by the Foundation in two $70,000 tranches in 2016 and 2017. The cheque was signed by directors Bruce McNiven and Peter Sahlas, drawn to the order of Millennium Golden Eagle International (Canada), the Canadian corporation that made the donations, and sent via Canada Post....

I'm going to summarize because I know you're time is limited. I'll just whip through some of these paragraphs.

The foundation issued a statement the same day declaring that it had been refunded, but on March 21, 2023, after three failed delivery attempts, Canada Post returned to the foundation the envelope containing the reimbursement cheque.

After the resignation of the president and CEO on April 10, 2023, the directors learned that in early April, the foundation staff reporting to the president had contacted the Bank of Montreal to confirm the origin of the two payments back in 2016 and 2017. The bank confirmed on April 23 that both payments were received by electronic transfer from the Canadian corporate entity listed on the CRA receipts that had been issued by the foundation, and that the two payments originated from its Montreal—that is the donor's—bank account, which was still open in 2023 and in good standing.

This information had never been provided to the board, which had recently been led to believe that one of the two $70,000 payments may have originated in China and that the foundation's CRA receipts may have been improperly issued.

On April 12, 2023, the $140,000 cheque that had been returned to the foundation by Canada Post was delivered directly to the donor's downtown Montreal branch of the Bank of Montreal. The cheque was provided to the donor's account manager at the branch, who deposited the cheque immediately and confirmed the deposit in writing.

The foundation is taking the appropriate steps with the CRA in regard to the above. The CRA receipts that were issued in 2016 and 2017 were both issued to the same Canadian corporation, Millennium Golden Eagle International (Canada). The first receipt was addressed overseas and the second receipt, approximately one year later, was addressed to the corporation's Canadian address.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Did the latter part of what you just described to me, sir, come from the bank—that information?

3:55 p.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

Edward Johnson

Which part was that? The fact that the account was there...?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Yes.

3:55 p.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

Edward Johnson

Yes, it was.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay.

Was what you read out the information transferred to the ethics committee the day after your testimony?

3:55 p.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

Edward Johnson

Yes, that's correct. I'm reading from the memo to the clerk of the ethics committee.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay.

There are a couple of issues I have with that.

From your perspective, sir, $140,000 was redeposited electronically in the Canadian bank account of Millennium Golden Eagle International (Canada) Inc.

Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

Edward Johnson

I'm not sure it was done electronically. I think the cheque was delivered to the bank. The same cheque we attempted to deliver some weeks earlier was—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay.

Did you receive any confirmation—

3:55 p.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

—from Millennium—

3:55 p.m.

Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation

Edward Johnson

It wasn't from Millennium.