Evidence of meeting #69 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.
A video is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
What is the relationship between the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and the federal government?
4 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
We have a funding agreement. Our connection—and our only connection—is through the funding agreement with ISED, or Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. As I mentioned earlier, we have been studiously pursuing compliance with that agreement over the 21 years, and we've delivered to the letter on the expectations set out in that agreement.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Ms. Bradford, I'm afraid that is the time, but we will come back to you. That was a good discussion.
Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank Mr. Johnson for being here today.
I'll begin with a comment about the context for our study. As you mentioned earlier, we in the Bloc Québécois have nothing against the recipients of scholarships and the potentially honourable principle of awarding scholarships to brilliant students. That's not at all where we're at. It is nevertheless important to specify that a non-profit organization, particularly when it has received funds from the government, has certain governance and transparency duties to the population. That's what my questions will be about.
In your opening statement, Mr. Johnson, you mentioned two gifts of $70,000 each. I believe you said that both receipts were issued to the Millennium Golden Eagle International company in Canada.
4 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
The name of the company on the receipts is the name of the Canadian subsidiary of Millennium Golden Eagle International. One of these receipts also bears the names of the two individuals who held discussions with the University of Montreal.
I would remind you that the discussions surrounding the gifts began when the former Canadian ambassador to China introduced Mr. Zhang Bin to the University of Montreal. Our understanding is that he was the director or head of the company. He was the one who conducted the negotiations with the university, and it was the university that asked Alexandre Trudeau, who testified before another parliamentary committee a few weeks ago, whether the university could use Pierre Elliott Trudeau's name. The million dollar gift followed a $400 thousand gift made two years earlier to the University of Toronto's faculty of medicine in memory of Norman Bethune. This time, the gift was in memory of Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who established relations between Canada and China, and who was also a professor in the University of Montreal's law faculty.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Good. Thank you. I'll stop you there because my speaking time is limited.
You appear to be well informed about the gift to the University of Montreal. However, when you testified before the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Ethics and Privacy, you didn't appear to have very much information about the $140,000 amount that was gifted by this company to you, the name of which I still hesitate to pronounce because I find it ridiculous. At the very least, I find it surprising that you would not have been aware of that gift, because you were sitting on the audit committee that very year.
According to standard procedure, the audit committee is responsible for ensuring that the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation demonstrates financial transparency and monitors the independent audit process.
4:05 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
That is indeed the role of that committee.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
That's right.
I find it hard to believe, Mr. Johnson, given that you sit on the committee, that you're not aware of gifts received by the foundation.
How would you explain that?
4:05 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
It's important to remember the words spoken by the legendary Warren Buffett a few years ago:
“Audit committees can't audit.”
The role of an audit committee is not to study every expenditure, gift or detail.
It's also worth noting the difference between the role of the management team on the one hand, and that of the board of directors on the other. The management role is to propose measures and implement them. The role of the board of directors is to monitor and approve how things are being done.
The volunteers on the audit team can't be familiar with all the details of every gift in any given year. To my knowledge, that's not done by any organization.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Okay.
Approximately how much did the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation receive that year? If you have a monitoring role, then you should be aware of figures like that.
4:05 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
We were told that amount back then, but I can no longer recall it. I believe it was between $1 million and $1.5 million.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
That accounts for about 10% of what the foundation would have received, meaning that it's a fairly significant amount
4:05 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
No, in context, it was a very small amount. It comes to a small fraction of 1% of our endowment fund.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
In that case, I'll return to these questions a little later.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much.
Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes, please.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I also want to thank Mr. Johnson for being present with us today.
As I'm sure you're aware...because you've been to several committees at the House of Commons here. I understand you were at privacy and ethics as well maybe four weeks ago now.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Our committee, in correlation with some of the other committees, are taking on the work of trying to find the best way forward to ensure that Canadians have the kind of integrity and trust in the system that is most important to our country, our democracy. I want to attempt to ask you questions that will provide the most information against what is, I understand, a very politicized environment. I want to recognize that very important fact and attempt to find reason and good information from you to try to better the understanding, but mostly to better the attempt of Canadians to understand this in a better way.
4:05 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
Fair enough.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Agreed.
At the committee, my colleague from Hamilton Centre asked you this question:
Would you agree that one of the ways to best provide the most amount of clarity around this—because we've now sat through many witnesses, and I'm not sure we have clarity—would be to be included in a public inquiry, should David Johnston, at the end of his special rapporteur position, present that?
At that time, your response was, “I don't think that would be necessary in order to clear the name of the foundation.”
Do you remember that exchange?
4:05 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors, Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation
Vaguely, yes.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Over a month has passed since that moment. Of course, just recently we found that the special rapporteur did not recommend a public inquiry.
Has your opinion, given the situation that has presented itself across Canada, changed in that matter of fact, in particular around trying to build confidence in Canadians for how important our democracy really is?