Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

As I said, at the immigration committee we've heard many cases of bias and racism that occur in different offices with respect to different groups of people, so I'm a bit surprised that you didn't find out anything in your audit. Was there nothing in there that you discovered about differential treatment?

[Karen Hogan]

To go into that level of detail, I'll have to see whether Ms. McCalla has something to add to the discussion.

[Carol McCalla, Principal, Office of the Auditor General]

We examined country of citizenship. We looked at application processing times and decisions by country of citizenship. We found that there were differential impacts among different countries of citizenship.

In terms of government-assisted refugees, we did not do a breakdown of the source of those applicants. For those, it was just the country of citizenship.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

You found differential treatment based on country of citizenship. This is a pretty significant thing, because there's a whole racism task force. There's a lot of work going on. Mr. Desjarlais was speaking about the same thing. It's a large focus. I'm a little surprised it was not given a bit more importance in here. I know there was a different recommendation on some other things, but the significance of this is....

I'm curious. Was it somehow downplayed by the department? How did the auditors miss this? It seems like a fairly big thing. It seems to be something that is missing.

[Karen Hogan]

With all due respect, I don't believe we missed it, Mr. Chair. Differential outcomes were something we highlighted. We highlighted the need for the department to better analyze the files it processes and the backlog it has along those lines. I was concerned they weren't doing that. This is exactly why we had a recommendation around better use of demographic data and the nee for it to be gathered, a commitment they made in their own diversity, inclusion and equity plan.

We definitely looked at it. We highlighted it in different areas throughout the report. I would respectfully say to the member that it's been covered. It's in there. There are recommendations that need to be—

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

However, in the section on refugees.... Numerous witnesses have talked about this at different committees, so we know it happens. It was not referred to. That bothers me.

[Karen Hogan]

We didn't look at the source of the application. We looked at the outcome, where it's sitting, how long it was taking and whether they had differential—

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

There is no recommendation here, and that's my concern.

Ms. Fox, you said that 95% of UNHCR GAR referrals are going through the online portal. It's been over a year. I'm reading this out of the action plan.

What's the problem? Why aren't we at 100% with all GARs applying online?

[Christiane Fox]

I'll have to dig up the exact percentage.

I will say that despite the fact that we offer a digital intake, it's important for us to have processes for those who don't have access so that they can make their application from a digital intake standpoint and that there's a way by which we continue to accept those. I think that's been true not just for refugees in various camps but also even for some rural and remote Canadians, who say they would still like that in-person service or support.

It's about balancing that, but we can take a look at the reason for the gap. I think it's probably explained by limitations with IT infrastructure.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I read your action plan. It says December 31 of this year is the deadline to achieve 100% SharePoint use for all UNHCR GAR referrals.

You're telling me that it's not going to be 100%. That's never going to happen.

[Christiane Fox]

What we're trying to do is, through the UNHCR, come to a system whereby they can do it for the refugees. It's not all independent of them. If we're working directly with them, that would be the objective. We're almost there. We hope to get there by the end of December of this year.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Fox, I'm going to pick up on something you talked about: global applications and the importance of having offices in different regions in order to be more efficient and, I think, equitable in the work you do.

The Indo-Pacific strategy includes some dollar investments for the relocation of visa processing offices. I think one of them was.... The processing of applications by residents of Pakistan was moved from Abu Dhabi back to Islamabad.

It's now been a year since that happened. Do you have any updates about how that is going? Has that impacted applications coming from the region?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you for raising that question.

Absolutely. In our conversation with the Pakistani government, they wanted us to increase our footprint on the ground. Yes, it was about processing, but it was mostly about having the ability to conduct interviews in the Islamabad office. There have been some challenges in getting all of our visas completed, so there was a caretaker mode, given the election in Pakistan. We've been able to use temporary duty officers. For a more permanent footprint, we need to finalize things with the Pakistani government. However, interviews are taking place in Islamabad.

Our team will be further expanding its footprint, given our commitment in the Indo-Pacific strategy.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

I'm just looking over the management action plan. I see that between January 2023 and October 2023, IRCC has reduced the spouses, partners and children backlog, except for Quebec, from 24% to 16% of applications on inventory.

I'm wondering if we have a breakdown as to where these backlog applications are in the world, as in where the applicants are residing in the world as they wait.

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, we can get that. Right now I can give you data that the overseas sponsored spouse backlog went from 20 months to 13 months. I think for a sponsored spouse here in Canada, it went from 12 months to 10 months. However, from that 13 months, we can definitely give you that data of where people are.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you. I'd really appreciate that.

Mr. Blois said that we really do appreciate a lot of the work that you do. I know how challenging this file is, and Canada is held to a really higher standard from across the world. I wonder if perhaps you can compare where Canada stands internationally with comparable countries in terms of our processes for IRCC.

[Christiane Fox]

I think It's fair to say that some of Canada's actions around refugee resettlement are celebrated around the world. When you leave Canada, you find a huge appreciation for what we are doing. I find my international counterparts are spending a lot of attention looking at how we are doing refugee resettlement in the context of labour pathways. Rather than categorizing people as refugees or asylum seekers or economic immigrants, we are trying to break down those barriers and we're indicating that refugees need supports. They need resettlement supports, but they can also contribute and have skills to benefit the country and benefit communities.

I think one practice that the international community is looking at is our economic mobility program as a bit of a model for use, and that goes with some of our partners—Talent Beyond Boundaries. We need to take a look at that and try to expand it as much as we can, and even look at our asylum population. If we are going to get temporary foreign skilled workers but we actually have a population here now, how can we work with the private sector to leverage this talent?

That's one area that is a focal point for us, but the ecosystem of settlement organizations and resettlement organizations that operate across this country is one of the best ecosystems in the world, and that's thanks to the NGOs, which do amazing work every day.

Those would be some reflections that my partners have shared with me.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Chair, I just want to make one last comment, if that's okay.

I'm really proud of a panel of some very strong women. You guys are absolutely amazing. Thank you. It's nice to see an all-women panel.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's very good. It's not the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My next questions, once again, are about human and financial resources. As we noted a few months ago, IRCC is one of the departments that have employed the most consultants. It would be interesting to know what happened between 2017 and 2019 to quadruple the amount of money spent to hire consultants from $6 million to $24 million.

More particularly, what were the results? The scope of the audit covers the years in which spending on consultants rose to $25 million a year. What was the purpose of that?

Lastly, will you continue employing as many consultants, or do you think that the work has been done, that you have the necessary evaluations and everything you need to implement Canada's immigration levels plan and that you no longer need consultants?

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you for that question.

For some of our department's activities, such as health care for interim benefit, we will continue to draw on a labour force outside the department.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Pardon me, but "health care for interim benefit" doesn't mean anything.

[Christiane Fox]

We deal with consultants and partners—I don't know the right word—who offer services that the department can't provide, such as health care. Payments are associated with that.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That has nothing to do with anything. We're talking about professional services and the McKinsey firm, which received $25 million over two years.