Evidence of meeting #43 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was provincial.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
S/Insp Steve Izzett
In the last 10 years in the city of Toronto.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Superintendent Schumacher, I'll ask you the same questions. How is termination governed? Is it determined at the municipal police force level or at the provincial level?
11:50 a.m.
Supt Gordon B. Schumacher
Our situation is very similar to that of Ontario, in the sense as well that the information is difficult for me to provide here today. Termination is something that's considered frequently if a person within the program is causing any form of concern to investigating officers or the province itself. Particularly if there is an issue that investigating officers are seeing, they will relay that to the province, and termination proceedings can occur very quickly.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
11:55 a.m.
Supt Gordon B. Schumacher
Yes, it's the province that's paying the bills. It's the provincial high-risk witness management program that contracts with the individual.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Mr. Comartin, I was not watching the time, and you are over time. Can you wrap it up, please?
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I have a whole other area to go into, Mr. Chair, so perhaps we can see what happens as we come around the next time.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Right, or you can get permission from the committee to pursue it.
We are now going to go over to the government side.
Mr. Hawn, please.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you all for being here.
I'd like to talk about cost a bit. We've heard various numbers come out. Perhaps, Superintendent Schumacher, you'd be the best one to answer this, with your federal association hat on.
We heard $800,000 from Ontario and $400,000 from Manitoba. We have some information that says that in 2005-06, relative to 2004-05, the costs went down from $2.5 million to $1.9 million.
Do you have a number for all the provinces? Do we have a provincial breakdown? I'm not asking for that breakdown, but....
11:55 a.m.
Supt Gordon B. Schumacher
No. As I mentioned earlier, the only provinces that are filling the void with provincial programs are Ontario, Manitoba, and Quebec, and I understand British Columbia is moving down that path. I don't have any information concerning cost from the other provinces, nor do I have information specific to the federal program.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Assistant Commissioner McDonell, do you have any other number from the federal side? Are we talking about $5 million, $10 million...?
11:55 a.m.
A/Commr Mike McDonell
I can just reiterate, if you wish, the numbers that were provided by Assistant Commissioner Souccar, the $2.5 million and the $1.9 million. That's the information I have.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Is that the estimate of the cost of all witness protection in Canada, including the provincial costs?
11:55 a.m.
A/Commr Mike McDonell
No, that is just the federal program, which we administer.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
We could do some rough extrapolation from the two provinces, I guess, to come up with a grosso modo number.
How does the witness protection program translate to people who are in prison but under witness protection? I assume there are some inmates who are under witness protection. Are these costs captured in that?
11:55 a.m.
Supt Gordon B. Schumacher
I'm not aware of any inmates who are under witness protection. That's just from my own perspective.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
That would surprise me a little bit, because you said they're responsible for their actions. Surely there are some people who have been convicted but who are also valuable from the point of view of being witnesses who would be protected within the prison system. Does that not make sense?
11:55 a.m.
Supt Gordon B. Schumacher
The reality is that if somebody is in jail, they're not going to be provided with witness protection. If they're out of jail and are part of the program and commit offences that are going to put them in jail, I suggest that they would be removed from the program, if that's the case.
That's generally speaking. This is going into the federal regime, so I can't speak too firmly on that. Certainly, if they're in the provincial program and are convicted of an offence that's sending them to jail, they will be out of the provincial program.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Do we have any idea how many people and families are under the witness protection program right now nationally, or is it again fragmented?
11:55 a.m.
A/Commr Mike McDonell
Yes, we have, and again those comments were provided by Assistant Commissioner Souccar. I can reiterate them: 700 are within the RCMP total realm of responsibility, and we manage 300 for other police agencies as well.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
What proportion of those are families? Are half of them families, or a third?
11:55 a.m.
A/Commr Mike McDonell
I do not know that. I can take it on notice.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Some number of them are.
In terms of funding, everybody wants federal funding, of course, in the provincial funding mechanisms in some provinces, although not in others. Nobody's mentioned a figure of what kind of ask there would be for federal funding to support witness protection across the country. Does anybody have a figure?
11:55 a.m.
S/Insp Steve Izzett
On behalf of the Toronto Police Service, we're not here to ask for funding. It is our position that when a witness becomes a witness, that witness becomes the responsibility of the prosecuting Crown. In the Ontario example, the Ministry of the Attorney General has acknowledged that responsibility and accepts the financial obligation associated with it.
If you are talking about the federal level, not speaking to which department would have the mechanics associated with that, the money is of no object to us; it's the capacity to enter somebody into a program that is funded outside. We have no interest in managing any more funds within our allocation.
Noon
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Okay. We won't write you a cheque.
Trust, obviously, is at the heart of any witness protection program. The folks have to trust you.
I want to talk about terrorism for a second. Assistant Commissioner McDonell, you'd probably be the best guy to comment on this. You may not be able to give me a number, but are there a lot of people in the witness protection program from the terrorism aspect?