Evidence of meeting #26 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was taser.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Graeme Dowling  Chief Medical Examiner, Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, Government of Alberta
Andrew McCallum  Regional Supervising Coroner for Eastern Ontario, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Order. This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, meeting 26. We are continuing our study of tasers.

We would like to welcome the two witnesses who are with us today: from the Government of Alberta, Mr. Graeme Dowling, chief medical examiner; and from the Government of Ontario, Mr. Andrew McCallum, regional supervising coroner for eastern Ontario.

I know it was a bit of a chore for you gentlemen to be with us here today. We appreciate the extra effort you went to in order to help us in our study of tasers. I think I speak on behalf of the committee when I say thank you for that.

The usual practice at this committee is to allow you time for an opening statement of approximately 10 minutes. Then we will begin our discussion with a round of questions and comments, starting with the Liberal Party. The first round is seven minutes and subsequent rounds are five minutes, after every party has had a chance to comment and question.

We look forward to what you have to share with us.

Mr. Dowling, would you be prepared to go first? We'll follow up with the PowerPoint presentation afterwards.

Please go ahead.

3:30 p.m.

Dr. Graeme Dowling Chief Medical Examiner, Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, Government of Alberta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to thank you very much for this opportunity to speak to you about investigations into deaths associated with the use of conductive energy weapons, or what I call tasers, that have been conducted by the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Alberta. I'd like to thank the Government of Alberta for allowing me to come to speak with you, but would like to emphasize that the opinions and views I will be offering you are my own.

By way of introduction, my name is Graeme Dowling. I am a forensic pathologist by training, have worked with the Alberta medical examiner's office for just about 22 years, and have been the chief medical examiner for the province for just under 15 years. As a medical examiner, I conduct investigations, which can include performing autopsies—so I actually do autopsies—into unexplained deaths caused by natural disease and into injury- and drug-related deaths.

The purpose of any death investigation is to establish, among other things, the cause of death and what is referred to as the manner of death, which is basically a statistical breakdown of deaths into natural, homicide, suicide, accidental, etc.

Our office conducts about 3,500 death investigations per year. Any death that occurs when an individual was in police custody or when there has been use of force by the police is automatically investigated by us, including all deaths where a taser has been utilized. These deaths are also reviewed at a public fatality inquiry, which is essentially very similar to a coroner's inquest.

There have been four taser-associated deaths in Alberta since 2001. The first of these occurred when police entered the residence of an intoxicated male in order to arrest him. The taser was discharged as soon as the police saw him, because witnesses had indicated that this gentlemen was armed with a knife. One of the taser darts did not lodge properly, such that the taser failed. This individual subsequently attacked the police and was shot four times. He had an extremely high blood alcohol level. There was no evidence to indicate that he was in a state of excited delirium.

The other three cases involved individuals in whose cases we have concluded that excited delirium was the cause of death, although one of the three had such an exceptionally high level of cocaine in his blood that arguably the cocaine, in and of itself, could be the cause of death.

I'm aware that the members of this committee have heard quite a bit about excited delirium, so I'll only say that this is a state of extreme agitation associated with bizarre, violent behaviour, so-called super-human strength, and elevated body temperature, thought to be caused in most cases by illicit drug use and/or psychiatric illness. It was actually first described in psychiatric patients in the mid-1800s, but has really only come to renewed attention in the past few decades.

Returning to our Alberta cases, police were called to deal with these three individuals because of their violent behaviour. Restraint methods varied among the three, but included what you might refer to as “piling on”—those are the best words I can use—where there are several police officers trying to restrain the arms, and even lying on the chest; hobbling, which is similar to but not quite the same as hog-tying; and of course, with all three, the use of tasers.

With two of them, there were three applications of five-second discharges, and with the third one there were three five-second discharges at the scene followed by five five-second discharges at hospital, as both police and emergency room personnel attempted to transfer this patient from an ambulance stretcher to a hospital examination table. This same individual then received a single injection of what we would call medically a “chemical restraint”—drugs used to tranquilize the person and bring them down—and this was administered by emergency room personnel.

In these cases, the individuals became unresponsive, usually several minutes after the last discharge of the taser. All attempts at resuscitation were unsuccessful, and in each case an autopsy did not reveal any restraint injury or natural disease that would be a clear-cut cause of death.

Of course, the question of most interest to you is, what role, if any, did the taser actually play in these deaths? That's the issue you're trying to look at. In the first case I gave you, it's arguably the failure of the taser that resulted in a rapid escalation of the police response to the use of deadly force. The other three are more difficult.

Although there are several things you have to look at, one important thing for me when I'm looking at these cases is the timing between the last discharge of the taser and the person becoming unresponsive. Generally when they're unresponsive, it is because the heart has stopped, or they have stopped breathing, or a combination of the two. When you come right down to it, the taser is an electrical device. If a taser is going to kill, it will do it in the same way as any other electrical device, by stopping the heart.

In electrocution deaths, which coroners and medical examiners investigate--we have to investigate all electrocution deaths--any person who receives an electrical current of sufficient strength to stop their heart will be unresponsive in 15 seconds. Some are immediately, but the maximum is about 15 seconds. So when we look at the discharge of taser, if the person becomes unresponsive when the taser is being discharged, or within 15 seconds of the discharge, an argument could be made that the taser might be the cause of death. It's a lot more complex than that--it's very difficult to prove--but that argument would have some merit. If the last discharge of the taser is outside of that 15 second range, then I think the best anyone can say is that the taser may--heavy emphasis on the word “may”--have been a factor in the death in ways that we, quite frankly, don't currently understand.

I believe you've learned just how complex most of these deaths are with an interaction of drugs, psychiatric disease, excited delirium, hog-tying, chokeholds, etc., such that sorting out what the actual cause of death is, versus factors that may or may not have played some role in the death, becomes virtually impossible.

If we look beyond tasers, though--to all deaths that have involved some sort of restraint close to the time of death--there is one relative constant. That is the state of excited delirium. The need for restraint by police, members of the public, or hospital staff in psychiatric facilities is created by the violent behaviour of these individuals. They are a threat to property, to themselves, and to others, such that our uniform community response is to try to get them under control so we can then attend to what we believe is an underlying medical emergency. Yet no matter what method of restraint has been used over the years--be it a taser, pepper spray, piling on, hog-tying, or chokeholds--within minutes of the subject being brought under control, or perhaps it's just when they've reached a state of complete exhaustion, there are some, not all, who become unresponsive and die. I've often asked myself what would happen if we simply stood back and agreed that we would watch them and allow them to exhaust themselves so that we could then approach them and hopefully assist them.

We investigated a death this year of a male who had been exhibiting increasingly strange behaviour to his family over a period of a couple of weeks. On the day of his death he began shouting paranoid statements, he started breaking things, he broke into a neighbour's home, and then he climbed onto the roof of a house and took off all of his clothes and attempted to jump to the roof of the adjoining house. He missed. He broke his fall by grabbing on to an eavestrough as he fell to the ground, but when he reached the ground he was still conscious. He was still incoherent, he was still behaving abnormally, and one police officer--the only police officer who was there--asked a number of bystanders to simply help him hold on to the legs and on to one arm so that the officer could place handcuffs on him. There was no hog-tying; there was no pressure on the chest; there was no taser; there was no chokehold. And as soon as the handcuffs were on, this individual stopped breathing. All attempts at resuscitation were unsuccessful. At autopsy, there were no injuries of any substance from his fall, no natural disease, nothing to account for his death. This, in our view, was a case of excited delirium.

We've also investigated rare cases where you have a secure apartment or house that has been completely destroyed on the inside. All the mirrors are smashed, the furniture is broken, the drywall is punched out, and in the middle of all this mess is a dead young adult male. There are no significant findings at autopsy. There may be a psychiatric history; there may be a small amount of cocaine. Once again, all indications are that these people were in a state of excited delirium. There were no police, there was no restraint, and there were definitely no tasers, yet they still died.

It's my belief that individuals in a state of excited delirium can experience a fairly wide variety of outcomes. In your work you have become most familiar with those who are restrained and die, but there are also those who go through the full gamut of restraint--including taser--and survive. And as I have presented to you, there are a group of people who undergo no restraint and still die.

The challenge for all of us is to try to understand how many people fall into each group--because we don't know--and what the differences are between them. Why does this one die? Why does that one survive?

I'm worried. As a Canadian, I want to make sure tasers are deployed by the right people for the right reasons. But laying the blame for these deaths solely at the feet or hands of the taser is far too easy and far too simplistic, and I think we need to do better than that.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much, Mr. Dowling. I appreciated that.

Mr. McCallum, are you ready to begin your presentation?

3:45 p.m.

Dr. Andrew McCallum Regional Supervising Coroner for Eastern Ontario, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario

I am, and I apologize to the committee that the screen is behind you.

Again, like Dr. Dowling, I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to address the committee, Mr. Chairman, and advise that Ontario has a medical coroner system very similar in many ways to Alberta's, in that a physician investigates all deaths. We work closely with the forensic pathologists in our system. We investigate approximately 20,000 deaths per annum, and we investigate very much the same gamut of deaths that would be investigated in Alberta. It's very much a similar system.

I'm going to echo much of what Dr. Dowling has told you already, but I want to give you a bit of background.

As Dr. Dowling ably stated it, the taser, if it kills, ought to kill electrically. The risk is, of course, to the heart. The heart is an organ that has a conducting system that is primarily electrical. I have projected here, just to assist you, the normal electrocardiogram complex. That's a normal QRS complex you see there.

The risky time is here. If an electrical shock is delivered either from an abnormal beat in a heart--which can cause a natural sudden cardiac death--or from an external electric source that reaches the heart at that time in the cardiac cycle, it can induce a phenomenon that is illustrated here. On the left of this, you see what look like fairly normal QRS complexes--you've all seen this on television--but here an abnormal early impulse generates a condition known as ventricular fibrillation, which is an ineffective cardiac rhythm for pumping blood. That's the concern with the taser: could it do this? That's perhaps where we ought to focus our scientific interest in this device.

As Dr. Dowling said, the excited delirium is a conundrum for us. It is a medical emergency. I agree with what Dr. Dowling said; I think it can be fatal in and of itself. Therefore, it requires treatment--life-saving treatment. Unfortunately, to approach these individuals it is necessary for them to be restrained, because they are violent and agitated and may injure the personnel who are trying to help them in their confused state. We know that appropriate restraint properly applied may be associated with death, so the individual and the responding emergency personnel have a conundrum.

We also know--and again I'm echoing what Dr. Dowling says--that subjects of excited delirium do die without the application of taser. We know that subjects of excited delirium die without restraint. It is possible, and even likely, that taser and restraint deaths are simply associated and not causal; however, again, we don't know.

It's useful to look at research in two areas.

The Canadian Police Research Centre has looked at the use of tasers. In their conclusions they made a number of main points. The first is that definitive research or evidence that implicates a causal relationship between the use of conductive electrical devices--tasers--and death does not exist, but they did warn of the adverse events of multiple consecutive CED cycles--in other words, continuous or repeated application of the taser. Existing studies indicate that in humans, at least, the risk of cardiac harm to subjects from a conductive electrical device is very low. In a moment I'm going to give you some information that may assist you about that.

Excited delirium, though not a universally recognized medical condition--it's really a forensic condition--is gaining increasing acceptance as a main contributor to deaths proximate to CED use. Again, Dr. Dowling and I agree on that.

In 2005, the British Columbia PCC released its final report on the medical safety of tasers, and it made several recommendations. The first is that tasers should only be used against a subject who is actively resisting arrest or posing a risk to others, not someone who is passively resistant.

Further, officers should avoid shocking a subject multiple times, because that is linked to perhaps decreased safety with this device.

Following a taser shock, a subject should be restrained in a way that allows him or her to breathe easily. I will say, again echoing Dr. Dowling, that in the vast majority of the cases I've seen, this is a male condition. I'm trying hard to think of a female case, but I can't think of one.

Finally, tasers should be subject to mandatory reporting. Police should be required to file a report every time they're used. Again, I don't think anybody would argue with that.

The second area of research that I want to acquaint you with, if you're not already acquainted with it, is a synopsis of some of the recent academic research on conductive electrical devices.

Ho et al., in 2007, found that applying a taser to a normal resting human subject did not affect cardiac activity. That doesn't help us a great deal, because the people it's applied to, in practice, are not normal resting subjects. They are agitated, excited, often intoxicated individuals.

Levine et al., in 2007, found that taser caused an increased heart rate and EKG changes of uncertain significance in normal subjects. This is fairly typical of medical research conducted by multiple researchers, in that there may be contradictory findings. And when there's a contradictory finding, what's necessary is further research to resolve a conflict.

Lakkireddy conducted a very interesting study using a pig model, and a pig is not a bad animal model for the application of taser. Dr. Lakkireddy found that cocaine, as you'll see—as you've heard from Dr. Dowling, and in Ontario we found the same thing—is overrepresented in these deaths. Cocaine does not increase the risk of cardiac arrest due to ventricular fibrillation in tasered pigs. That's counterintuitive to me, but that is what was found.

McDaniel found that taser had a low probability of inducing ventricular fibrillation in pigs when applied at normal application energies.

But Walter et al. found, in 2008, that at eight times the usual dose applied in a transcardiac fashion—in other words, where the two electrodes of the taser were situated so that the current between them would pass through the heart—it would occasionally cause ventricular fibrillation and cardiac effects.

Similar results were found by Dennis et al. in 2007.

This is the same group. This is also fairly common in the medical literature: it looks like different authors publishing, but in fact it's the same group. They found that in two of the six pigs they applied taser to, ventricular fibrillation and death developed as a consequence—temporally related. Nanthakumar, in 2006, had a similar result. This is a Canadian study, and this is the one Dr. Dowling and I are familiar with, but they did find that at one to three times the normal dose—that is, the usual applied dose per kilogram in the field—ventricular fibrillation could result.

So in theory, at least, based on these pig studies, the taser could cause capture of the heart, electrical capture, and if at a vulnerable period in the cardiac cycle, could cause ventricular fibrillation. The question is whether it does in humans. The fact is that we have not seen it. In all the cases we've had in Ontario, similar to the Alberta experience, we have not found somebody who had a taser discharged at them and who then, within that 15-second interval, became suddenly unresponsive. That's not what we found, and I'll tell you what we found in a moment.

Why is there no definitive research? It's been alluded to frequently, but the fact is that it's unethical to place human subjects into an excited delirium state and then taser them. It couldn't be done, and so we don't have that information. Animal studies are also constrained because there are ethical constraints, obviously, on the suffering that can be induced in animals. Further, we don't know that the pig is an exact analogue to the human physiology, and therefore there's that problem as well. What we can conclude from animal studies is always below the ideal level of evidence that one would want.

So a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial, which is the gold standard in health research, is not possible with tasers, and we're not going to get that kind of evidence. Unfortunately, you won't be assisted by that in your work on this committee.

When is the taser, then, appropriately used? I would agree completely with Dr. Dowling that one of the real challenges is to ensure that tasers are used on the right subjects at the right time. Again, this is my view, not the view of the Office of the Chief Coroner in Ontario, but it should be used as a penultimate or second-to-last choice, when the only other option would be lethal force.

These states are often associated with what are known as toxidromes, particularly cocaine and acute psychosis, and that is the excited delirium state you've heard about. This is not only a mentally but a physiologically risky state due to the fact that the person is experiencing a very high metabolic rate—they're exercising at a furious pace. In very many cases, they're not conditioned athletes; they're not able to exercise this way safely. They're overheated—you've heard about the high temperature. They have a very high oxygen demand, and in particular, the heart is one of the highest-oxygen-demand organs in the body. They're acidotic because, as they exercise, they build up a substance called lactic acid, and that in itself is a risk for abnormal heart rhythms as well.

And then to add to this witches brew you've heard about, you have the effect of cocaine. In my view—I'm not sure what Dr. Dowling would say about this—there isn't a safe level for cocaine in the body. There is no such thing. You certainly hear recreational levels of cocaine being described by toxicologists, but in my view, in a person who is vulnerable, cocaine is always a risk and death is frequent when these individuals are restrained.

So the question then is whether it is the taser. In our experience—and I apologize, I've updated this information, because this was a fairly short turnaround time for us—we actually have had seven deaths in Ontario since 2004 associated with taser application. Four of those deaths were associated with cocaine toxicity. Two of them, like the case in Alberta that was described where the taser was discharged but failed, were associated with gunshot fatalities by law enforcement officials. One of them was associated with a psychotic state.

We have not seen a case, however, where the taser was discharged and the person became unresponsive within the 15-second interval that one would expect if it were the taser causing a cardiac dysrhythmia.

We have had several inquests where there have been taser recommendations as a consequence of the inquest by the inquest jury. In 2005, the Lamonday inquest jury made 17 recommendations. Lamonday was a 33-year-old male who was in an excited delirium state where tasers were applied to him and he was ultimately restrained and then subsequently died. The jury found that the medical cause of death was not the taser but a cocaine-induced excited delirium. They made a number of recommendations, one of which was that the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services in Ontario should authorize all front-line officers to carry the taser, so convinced was the jury of the worth of the device.

In another inquest of death due to excited delirium where was taser was not used, that jury also recommended that the taser ought to be available for front-line use in Ontario.

The bottom line is that we don't know whether or not taser can cause death. I think it is fair to say that it's very likely and possible that the taser is not associated with these deaths; however, one cannot say that the taser is without risk. It's clearly an instrument that applies electrical shock. If applied in the anatomically vulnerable location across the heart with sufficient energy to a person who is vulnerable, it's quite possible that we could see a death. We don't have enough numbers now to know whether we can exclude that possibility.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much, sir. We appreciate the information both of you have given us.

Ms. Barnes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for coming here on short notice to help us out.

With respect to the presentation just given, you talked about the 2005 study by the Canadian Police Research Centre. My understanding was, when they testified before us, that was a literature review study. That was not an independent study where they did their own work; it was just a review of current data available. Is that correct?

3:55 p.m.

Regional Supervising Coroner for Eastern Ontario, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario

Dr. Andrew McCallum

I don't know the methodology they used, so I can't comment.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

But you cited it here.

3:55 p.m.

Regional Supervising Coroner for Eastern Ontario, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Well, I'm telling you that's what it is.

3:55 p.m.

Regional Supervising Coroner for Eastern Ontario, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario

Dr. Andrew McCallum

Thank you. I appreciate that.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

All right.

The other thing you talked about is second last use, basically, penultimate use. Are you aware that the RCMP uses it as an intermediate device at the present time?

3:55 p.m.

Regional Supervising Coroner for Eastern Ontario, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario

Dr. Andrew McCallum

I'm not an expert on the application of it in the use of force continuum, so I couldn't really comment. I wouldn't be prepared to talk.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Okay, well, I'll give you that fact also, then. This is of concern to us.

The other thing both of you have mentioned is repeated application of this causing some concern. I'd like to hear more about this, because again, this is allowed right now, and we are aware that there are different evolutions of this device that will come that will have even higher applications in a timeline.

Could you, first of all, talk about why you have the concern about more than one application, even though it is allowed?

3:55 p.m.

Chief Medical Examiner, Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, Government of Alberta

Dr. Graeme Dowling

I think that with anything, be it chokeholds, which I'm not really a proponent of either, or anything you're doing to restrain, there comes a point where you have to back off and say this isn't helping.

I think I should make you aware that I'm not an expert at all with electricity; watts and all of that type of stuff confuse the heck out of me, and I don't fully understand it. But as I understand it, repeated applications don't add up.

But if it's not assisting, if you're not getting control of the person, it seems to me it's not the right thing to use. Is there something else we can be moving to?

Unfortunately, I think the discussion is that the taser should be penultimate. If it doesn't work, unfortunately, it doesn't leave a lot.

I don't really know what the multiple use of it is. There was one case I've seen in the literature that really bothered me. I think that individual had something like six to eight tasers from different sites, all with the darts in him and all being discharged. That, to me—not as a forensic pathologist—because I don't know what effect it has, just sounds really weird. It was an American case, thank goodness.

The one case I have heard of that really did cause me concern about the taser being a cause of death was presented at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences meeting in Seattle two years ago. It was a case where the taser was literally used continuously for over three minutes. At that point, common sense would say you're going to have some effect on the ability to breathe. Let's leave the heart out of it; with all the muscular contraction for five seconds, yes, it does hamper breathing. But for over three minutes? That's just inappropriate use. That was shocking to me. Again, it was an American case.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Dr. McCallum, would you like to comment?

4 p.m.

Regional Supervising Coroner for Eastern Ontario, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario

Dr. Andrew McCallum

The only thing I can add to what Dr. Dowling has said is about the pig experiments, where 40-second applications used in pigs were associated with a higher rate of ventricular fibrillation. The only inference I would draw from that is that prolonged application is going to make it more likely that you'll have a discharge during that vulnerable period of the heart cycle, and the potential would exist then, perhaps more than in the briefer applications, for cardiac rhythm abnormalities. That, I think, physiologically would be the central concern.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Is there anybody else on that?

Ms. Brown.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON

Thank you, gentlemen.

How many seconds apart in the heart cycle does that risk peak turn up?

4 p.m.

Regional Supervising Coroner for Eastern Ontario, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario

Dr. Andrew McCallum

It depends on the heart rate, but it would be fair to say that you could expect that an individual in this state would have a heart rate between 120 to 150 typically, because they're exercising, they're agitated, they have a tremendous outpouring of adrenalin from the internal sources that adrenalin comes from. That would mean they would have a vulnerable period in their cycle every half second or so, or less.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON

So even in a five-second discharge....

4 p.m.

Regional Supervising Coroner for Eastern Ontario, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario

Dr. Andrew McCallum

That would be fair to say; I think you'd have to acknowledge that this is the possibility, but we've not seen it. It's something we've not seen in our province, and it sounds as though Alberta hasn't either.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON

So in the heart cycle, it would be pretty difficult, in an excited person—it doesn't even have to be in excited delirium, but it could be that you're just excited because the police have been chasing you down the street, or something—there's a very high likelihood that the taser would actually be hitting the person during at least one of those high-risk peaks.

4 p.m.

Regional Supervising Coroner for Eastern Ontario, Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services, Government of Ontario

Dr. Andrew McCallum

Yes, but I think you need to qualify that concern. If I may, I'll just give you some background.

The actual energy that reaches the heart is below the amount of energy that has been shown experimentally to induce ventricular fibrillation, in the main. Again, there's a possibility that if the darts happen to be in a location where the current traverses the heart, the energy would be higher.

That's something that's very important to understand. I know that these have been the findings experimentally: the amount of energy that actually gets to the heart is not enough to convert it. But the jury is still out on that one, I would have to say.