Public Safety Committee on March 31st, 2009

[Geoffrey O'Brian]

Some of the best words that I've read on this, as I say, come from the House of Lords decision. Lord Brown said:

Torture is an unqualified evil. It can never be justified. Rather it must always be punished.... But torture may on occasion yield up information capable of saving lives, perhaps many lives, and the question then inescapably arises: what use can be made of this information?

The court concludes you can never use it in criminal proceedings, you can never use it in judicial proceedings. But Lord Brown goes on to say:

Generally speaking it is accepted that the executive may make use of all information it acquires: both coerced statements and whatever fruits they are found to bear. Not merely, indeed, is the executive entitled to make use of this information; to my mind it is bound to do so. It has a prime responsibility to safeguard the security of the state

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll have Mr. Kania, please.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Mr. O'Brian, recommendation 14 of Justice O'Connor's report says, “Information should never be provided to a foreign country where there is a credible risk that it will cause or contribute to the use of torture.” Do you think there's any ambiguity in that?

[Geoffrey O'Brian]

I seem to be apologizing a lot.

I would make two comments. If I could add the word “knowingly”, I would feel more comfortable, because the reality is that in many cases, you don't know. That's the first point.

The second point is that I would reserve, on the side, that one-in-a-thousand or one-in-a-million--whatever it is--case that we all talk about and that I don't raise simply for simplistic, argumentative, and legalistic.... The simple truth is that if we get information that can prevent something like the Air India bombing, the twin towers, or whatever, frankly, that is the time we will use it, despite the provenance of that information. Those are minuscule. Everything else is for building in a system that ensures that we respect and follow Canadian values.

So with those two caveats--knowingly and in that one instance--yes.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

So in essence, from what you've just indicated, you agree with me that you are modifying the 14th recommendation of Justice O'Connor's report.

[Geoffrey O'Brian]

You might conclude that. I confess if I have done so. I may go back to my office and find that my director has a word to say to me or that the minister does. But if you have concluded that, that's....

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

As you know, this is a public committee, and this is being televised today, and you are representing CSIS. From the response you've just given in terms of this 14th recommendation, would you not agree with me that in essence, what you're doing is encouraging people, letting them know that if there is credible information that might somehow be useful in some circumstance that is gained through torture, you'll use it?

[Geoffrey O'Brian]

No, excuse me. You said--and forgive me--some circumstance, some instance, or some whatever. No. I attempted in my answer to give a substantive answer that there will be those occasional, unusual, almost once-in-a-lifetime situations when that kind of information can be of value to the national security of the country.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

If somebody is watching this....

[Geoffrey O'Brian]

What I am telling the Canadian public is that we are subject to a huge number of controls. How we exercise our judgment will be commented on by the Security Intelligence Review Committee, by the Inspector General, and so on and so forth. If we've made the wrong decision, it will be pointed out, and the Canadian public can rest assured that information will come to light.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

But by giving this response, in essence you are condoning the use of torture. Because somebody watching on television right now in Syria, or with ties to Syria or some other country, will know that if they find something, we may use it. They've heard in this public committee and they've seen on television that CSIS has said that if we find it, we might just use it, so why wouldn't they try? The purpose of the recommendation was to stop the use of torture and to say that we will not cooperate with those countries that might use it.

What you're saying now is that we don't agree with the recommendation, and we're condoning it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

There's a point of order here, so we'll have to stop.

[Geoffrey O'Brian]

I'm sorry that you've drawn that conclusion. I agree with--

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. O'Brian, we have a point of order, so I'll just....

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

My point of order is that there is a motion I introduced last week. I'd like the opportunity to debate it before we adjourn today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. Well, if that's the case, then this meeting will suddenly come to an end. We'll have to suspend. We'll have to clear the room.

I'm sorry. I had no notice that this was coming.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

In fairness, I did present the motion last week, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I know, but it would have to be brought up, and you'd have to notify me so that we could put it on the agenda.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Since you didn't do that, we will now suspend this meeting for one or two minutes. We have to clear the room here at eleven o'clock.

I thank our witnesses for what we've done.

Where's my gavel?

We will suspend. Any future business of the committee will be in camera.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Yes, but my point is that we don't need to wait a minute or two.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll have to wait a minute or two, yes. We have to clear the room.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Why?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have to clear the room if you go in camera.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Sorry; you don't have to go--