Public Safety Committee on March 10th, 2009

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Norlock, would you like to continue, or Mr. McColeman?

Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I have a pretty brief question.

I don't know the percentages. They are not large, but quite a number of people hold NEXUS passes. Will it be required, with the NEXUS pass, to also show a passport as you cross through the NEXUS line at any given border crossing?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

My understanding is the NEXUS pass is meant to expedite the crossing of the border, so I doubt very much that it would become a requirement, but that question should be directed to CBSA, which administers the program.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

You are not certain whether it is required to show your passport as well as the NEXUS--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

It will be a requirement as of June 1.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Okay.

I have one final question on NEXUS, if I might. Since the launch of that program, it seems to me it has been trying to achieve certain principles. Is that a program that offers opportunities in the future to increase border security? Do you see it as an area where cross-border movement can be facilitated in a much more streamlined fashion, as Mr. Holland has indicated is so important at certain border crossings?

[Barry MacKillop]

Again, it's a program that's run by CBSA, so it's difficult for me to provide an accurate answer to that. My impression is the screening that's required for individuals in order to obtain the NEXUS pass would facilitate more rapid and easier movement of people with those passes across the border, both now and in the future. The opportunity to obtain that pass is open, and people can certainly apply to get that. The screening involved in obtaining that pass will go a long way to facilitating that.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Just give a yes or no on this. The sense I'm getting is it doesn't seem to be a program that holds big promise and everybody's talking about it in the various agencies as something we should be moving toward and encouraging. Obviously people will be mandated to have a passport, and to encourage them to get a NEXUS pass in parallel to that....

[Barry MacKillop]

I can't answer that. CBSA would be a better place to get an answer on the promotion of that program.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

CBSA will be here on Thursday, so we can redirect those questions.

Mr. Oliphant, please.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you for coming here today. I also want to thank Mr. Harris for his questions on handguns, which was going to be my leadoff as well.

As a member from a Toronto riding, I am increasingly concerned about illegal firearms and handguns. Just to put it on record, I am disappointed in your answers on that. We need more work on that.

You focused primarily on the American border with Canada, and we have three other borders. We have other points of entry. We heard a lot about our communications with the Americans. Can you just explain what communications we have with the Asia Pacific world, the European world, and the circumpolar world? Do we have equal attention being paid to those borders?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

We have attention being paid to those borders as well. As to whether it's equal attention, no, obviously it's not, but we are regularly in contact with our counterparts in Asia as well as Europe. We have liaison officers who are deployed to those areas to facilitate the discussions.

Similarly, there are working groups. I can think of two, the North Atlantic Coast Guard Forum and the North Pacific Coast Guard Forum, which focus specifically on looking at the security of our respective borders as well as the activity that is taking place in between, in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, that regroup representatives from a number of different countries—for obvious reasons they are different countries. But there is attention being paid to borders other than strictly the Canada-U.S. border.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

What about the crime forum?

[Barry MacKillop]

The crime forum is more specifically focused on Canada-U.S. relations and the Canada-U.S. border.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

If we have human smuggling coming in from Asia or from the Atlantic, do we have any cooperative activity going on around it?

[Barry MacKillop]

Certainly that would be addressed in the forum. Once they land, Canada is often seen as a transit country, so there is work done there. We're also involved and do a significant amount of work through the Bali process, the UN, the G-8, and the Organization of American States. We're involved in all of those and we address a lot of very similar issues, but on a broader, more global scale.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Secondly, I have a concern that we have not had a national security strategy report since 2005, since the new government came in. Has either of your bodies been asked to contribute to a report that could come to Parliament or to the people of Canada?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Yes, we have been asked to provide input into the preparation of such a document. Unfortunately, I don't have the details with me here today.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

We will have to ask the minister. But we're disappointed that in four years there has been no.... There's a lot of information sharing going on with the Americans, but I'm worried that there's not information sharing going on among the Canadian bodies. I think that would be revealed in a report. Even today, there are things that the border security group doesn't have that you have, and I'm worried about whether it would be the nature of such a report to tie that information together. We'll ask the minister about that.

The third question is this. We talk a lot about information sharing with the Americans. I'm wondering whether there have been changes in the protocols or changes in your procedures as a result of the Iacobucci or O'Connor reports talking about the information that was shared that caused four Canadians to be sent and tortured in other countries. Have your procedures changed since those reports were issued?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Yes, I think it goes without saying that as a result of their findings the two inquiries have caused us to go back to look at the different processes we had in place and the methodology followed to share the information.

We need to make a distinction, however, between the sharing of information in a national security context and sharing of information in a criminal context, which are different issues altogether with different processes in place.

The IBET program specifically looked at the issue of making sure there was a standardized approach to the sharing of the information amongst all enforcement agencies that participate in the IBET program. There was a working group created.

Warren, I forget what year that was created.

[Supt Warren Coons]

It was 2007.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

It was in 2007, and as a result of the work they have done binationally, they have developed a matrix.

Do you want to speak to that?

[Supt Warren Coons]

Yes. There is an information-sharing protocol within the IBET program based on the matrix that was devised. Essentially it's a recounting of all of the legislation that each of the agencies has to deal with in respect to sharing of information, and a “how to”, if you will. Everybody is in possession of those matrices. In other words, the U.S. border patrol has the documentation that supports how the RCMP shares information and what they can expect from the RCMP when they request information, and vice versa. Everybody is well versed in what information they can, one, ask and, two, expect to get back.

It's very important to recognize that information sharing is a two-way street. There's a concern obviously about over-sharing of information. There's also a concern about not sharing the information that can and should be shared to make sure that our borders are secure.