Evidence of meeting #14 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was privacy.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Okay. When you say “stopped from flying”, what do you mean by that? I had constituents who were stopped from flying.
3:45 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
You may indeed have had constituents who were stopped from flying; it would not have been because they were on the specified persons list.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
There's an indication here that the border individual at the scene has the power to decide whether people are allowed to board a plane. Is that correct?
3:45 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
No, that is not correct.
3:45 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
A list of people who are on the specified persons list is provided to the airlines. Before every flight, the airlines will reconcile the people who are on their flight against the specified persons list. If there is a possible match, they will phone the Transport Canada operations centre, which is a 24/7 operations centre, to obtain further information about whether the person who they feel is a possible match is actually a person on the list. In most cases, the time taken to resolve those questions is usually about three to five minutes, so it has never resulted in a case of delayed boarding.
3:45 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Out of 600 calls we've received over the past three years, we've had two instances of false positives. In those two instances, neither of those people was denied boarding the flight.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Okay, now what about my constituents that were denied boarding their flight?
3:45 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Again, I don't know the circumstances with respect to your constituents, but I repeat, if they were denied because they were on the specified persons list, they would have been notified at the time that they were denied the boarding pass.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
There are two things here. I'm running out of time, so I'll sort of do three at once.
I notice that there's a reverse onus provision for somebody to prove their innocence. Secondly, if they're not happy with the decision that's then reached, they can apply for judicial review in the Federal Court. So in essence, what's occurring here is you're making people prove their innocence. If they're not happy and they can't prove their innocence based on your standards, they have to hire a lawyer, go to Federal Court and spend that money. Wouldn't it be better to have some independent such as an ombudsperson or somebody who would look at this and make the decision at arm's length, rather than forcing them to spend money and go to Federal Court?
3:45 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
I guess I would like to make a few points, Mr. Chair. One is that we are not saying that anyone who was on the list is guilty. What we are saying is that they're a threat to aviation safety. My second point is yes, judicial review is one recourse of action that a person may have if they find they're on the list, but they also do have access to our office of reconsideration, which does make available to them an independent reviewer who will review their case and make a recommendation to the Minister of Transport about whether or not their particular case should be reviewed. There are also other avenues open to them, as I mentioned earlier--the Public Complaints Commissioner for the RCMP and the CSIS body for review of their information.
3:45 p.m.
Conservative
3:45 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you all for coming.
Mr. McDonald, I would like to check something with you. You talked about the process when someone goes to the airport and reports to the airline company. The employee enters the individual's name and realizes that there is some kind of match between the name of the individual and the name on the list. The employee then requests verification to determine whether this individual is the same person whose name is on the list. The request is made to the Department of Transport. The Department of Transport makes the verifications and decides whether to authorize this person or not. In fact, the minister, the deputy minister or the person in charge decides whether or not to allow the individual to board the plane. Is that correct?
3:45 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Yes, that's correct.
3:45 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
You also said that you did not use the American list, but rather the Canadian list. Is that right?
3:50 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
That's correct, yes.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
If you do not use the American list, why are domestic flights—in Canada—diverted because they are flying over the United States? Why am I being told that people whose names are on the American list are being turned away? I have been told that Air Canada also uses the American list. However, Air Canada must refer to you. So you must automatically refer to the American list.
3:50 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
No, as I repeated, we do not make use of the American list. The only instance when a flight in Canada may be diverted to Canadian airspace would be if it was an international flight that might come into American airspace. When it is in American airspace, it would be subject to American rules. So if there is potentially a person on the U.S. no-fly list who is going through the American airspace, the Americans may request that the flight not enter American airspace on its flight from an international destination to Canada.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Why does Air Canada say that it uses the American list, that the American list is being used? I do not understand.
3:50 p.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
I'm sure Air Canada would be using the American list, certainly for any people flying to the United States, because anyone flying to the United States would be subject to U.S. airspace rules and they would be required to use the U.S. no-fly list.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
I have another question for Mr. Tremblay.
What would prompt you to advise the Department of Transport to put someone's name on the list? What criteria do you use? Mr. McDonald said that these individuals on the no-fly list constitute a threat to aviation security but are not guilty.
So how do you identify these individuals? Is it based on religion or on whether or not they have a beard? What are the criteria? We hear a lot about racial profiling as well.
3:50 p.m.
Chief Superintendent Larry Tremblay Director General, National Security Criminal Operations, National Security Criminal Investigations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Thank you.
I would like to say at the outset that the RCMP does not put anyone's name on the list. The RCMP is part of a committee that makes recommendations. These recommendations are submitted to the Minister of Transport. In fact, the RCMP submits information to a committee, but does not make the recommendation. When the RCMP has information that an individual may represent a threat to air security, it bases itself on the activities of this individual. The only facts that we take into account are the individual's actions—
3:50 p.m.
C/Supt Larry Tremblay
—without any reference to religion, gender or membership.
