Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elcock.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ward Elcock  Special Advisor, Privy Council Office
Superintendent Alphonse MacNeil  Division Operations Commander 2010 on the G8 and G20, Integrated Security Unit, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Marie-Lucie Morin  National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

4:20 p.m.

C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil

The total cost for the.... It's more than the command centre. It's the planning operations area for the G-8 and G-20. What we called the unified command centre was built within that building. It's a 55,000-square-foot building. It was the only building in the area that we could obtain at the time that had a large enough footprint to house the planning team that we knew we were going to have to put together for G-8 and then again for the G-20. We also had our joint intelligence group in that building. The cost was roughly $16.5 million, and not $27 million, or whatever was quoted.

One of the reasons it was as costly was because of the security requirements for all of our partner agencies. As you can imagine, we had the highest level of security groups in the country in that building. No one was going to come and work there unless the building was at a top secret level. There was a requirement in the construction of that site to put more into it than would normally be put into an ordinary building. It was costly, but that was a part of doing business. We needed everyone together. We needed all of our security partners. Without that site, we wouldn't have had them, and we wouldn't have been able to secure the sites in the manner we did.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Elcock, maybe you can help me a little bit here. My friends across are experts in security. My understanding was that there were large numbers of international people, large numbers of Canadians, and somewhere in excess of 3,000 press people who were at the summit in Toronto. Are there hotel rooms at the CNE grounds?

4:20 p.m.

Special Advisor, Privy Council Office

Ward Elcock

No, there aren't, Mr. Chairman.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Would it mean, then, that to move these large numbers of people there would be huge costs in providing security?

4:20 p.m.

Special Advisor, Privy Council Office

Ward Elcock

If the event had been held at the CNE grounds, we would have had to secure both the CNE grounds and also the hotel area in downtown Toronto, since that would have been the only place people could have stayed, and there were relatively large delegations. And likely enough, in terms of trying to control the specific area of a number of hotels, it would have looked pretty much the same whether or not the meeting was held in the MTCC or in the CNE grounds.

But if it had been held in the CNE grounds, we would have had the added cost, both human and monetary, of securing the CNE grounds as well as securing the various routes to and from the CNE grounds, and that would have been a much more complicated security operation.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Is it also a fair assessment that to do what you did do, or what was done in a very successful way with all of the partners, took a great deal of cooperation from police agencies, not only in Toronto but in a broader perspective from perhaps even across the country? Would it have been a real drag on resources of police agencies to do anything additional?

4:20 p.m.

Special Advisor, Privy Council Office

Ward Elcock

Particularly in a year where we already had the Olympics--which was a huge draw on police forces from across the country, because no police force in Canada is really big enough on its own within a specific city to manage an event the size of the G-8 and the G-20--the reality was that police forces were seeking assistance from other police forces across the country.

The RCMP, in particular, drew from its other divisions in order to have sufficient numbers of people in Toronto. And that was difficult for many of the other police forces, given that there had already been a fairly large loan of people for the Olympics in February.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. MacKenzie, I'm sorry, your time is up.

Monsieur Gaudet or Madam Mourani, you have five minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will be splitting my time with my colleague a little later on.

Minister, you seemed to be saying earlier on that you were not very responsible for what happened. You say you were not informed of this. You are constantly deferring to Mr. Elcock, who should perhaps soon be appointed Minister of Public Safety, given the fact that he seems better informed and able to answer our questions than you are.

Perhaps you can tell us whether at least your department or even yourself—perhaps in cooperation with Mr. Elcock, who knows?—sent very clear directives as to security and the treatment of protesters? If so, what were these directives?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

The operational issues are handled by the RCMP and the various police forces, not the Minister of Public Safety. I would not have sent any directives of that nature.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Very well, I will repeat my question. This time, I will try to make sure that you have an accurate picture of the situation. When we talk of protesters, we get the impression of an impersonal mass of people. So I will name a few names, I will mention the names of a few young people. Some of them are here, others are not. Some will come to appear before our committee. Jacynthe Poisson, Maryse Poisson, Kevin Gagnon, Wissam Mansour, Will Prosper, Nargess Mustapha, Marie-Ève Desrosiers, Émilie Guimond-Bélanger, Julien Parent-Houle, Bruno, Létitia, Sylvia Bissonnette, Lyne Dubord, Patrick Sicotte, Mathieu Boucher, France Kirouette, Dominic Palladini. These are young people who are now completely disillusioned with your Canada, because they would never have imagined they could ever have been treated like rats as they were in Toronto.

At the very least, even if you are responsible for nothing, could you apologize to them, Minister? These people are not rats, Minister. They are human beings, people who took to heart their vision of democracy, something you have broken, you, and the major institutions in attendance today. Do you realize, Minister, the image of Canada that has been given to these young people in Toronto, young people who now no longer believe in protesting nor in Canadian democracy? What do you have to say to these young people?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Well, Madam Mourani, all I can suggest is that Canada is one of the most open countries with respect to the right to protest, the right to demonstrate. In fact, I've been subject to a demonstration or protest from time to time myself. I've always been pleased that people would take the time to recognize me in that way, even if I don't agree with them. But in this country individuals are free to protest according to law. As I've indicated, if there are any improprieties that have—

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Minister, 900 people were incarcerated because they went to protest.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Well, if you want to hear from me—

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

I have heard you very well.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Madam Mourani, just let Mr. Toews—

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

I don't need to come here and just listen to you. I can listen to you in the House of Commons any time.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

I am telling you that 900 people protested and no longer believe...

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

If you want me to speak, I'll speak. If you don't, interrupt.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

I do not have much time, Minister. I asked you a question and you have yet to respond. Will you apologize? Yes or no, quite simply.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Well, you haven't given me an opportunity to answer, and it's obvious that you're not interested in any answers here. Just judging from the questions, it's clear that you don't understand the basic rule that politicians do not get involved in security operations and that the police make those determinations. Police on the street make those determinations.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

I am not talking about operations, Minister.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Madam Mourani, let him finish his statement.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

It appears to me that you don't understand the fundamental distinction between the responsibility of elected individuals and that of police in operational situations. If you want to have that discussion, we can have that discussion.

What I can do for you is suggest that you read the Hughes report. If you want to read the Hughes report, it'll give you a very clear indication of what not to do as a politician, in terms of directing police. The prior Liberal government in fact adopted the position that you are advocating.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Did you call for a public inquiry? You could do so, that is your role. Your role is to call for a public inquiry.

Are you going to do it? No, once again—