Public Safety Committee on Oct. 25th, 2010

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

My understanding was that there were about 20,000 security people involved, so it will be fairly broad in those organizations assembling their numbers. Is that a reasonable expectation?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I think you've hit the nail right on the head. It's not simply one contract we're dealing with here, one simple provision of services. Even within one organization, that organization could provide various types of services, not only the police services that were involved but also the private contractors who did work on behalf of the summit.

I'm wondering, Mr. Elcock, can you make any additional comments in that respect?

[Ward Elcock]

No, Mr. Chairman. I think at this stage some numbers have come in, but the reality is we do not have final numbers, and we will not have final numbers until the costs from Ontario, Toronto, and Peel Regional are finally in and audited.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Certainly over the last few months, we've heard, I would say, wild and crazy numbers come out of the official opposition, particularly on some of these things. One of the things I believe we've heard them talk about...and perhaps the RCMP officer can tell us about what they deemed the draining of a quarry for multi-million dollars. My understanding is this facility might not quite be as they have indicated. It was in the Orillia area.

[Chief Superintendent Alphonse MacNeil, Division Operations Commander 2010 on the G8 and G20, Integrated Security Unit, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Yes. The quarry you're referring to is where we built what we called a temporary accommodation facility for the police officers who stayed in the Huntsville area to police the G-8. The Huntsville area did not have adequate accommodation available. It required building a facility, and basically it was a very large trailer park that would house 4,500 police officers.

The quarry itself was one of the only areas--we searched the whole area looking for a suitable spot. We found two locations that were potentially good for that size of an operation. There may be a bit of a misconception. I've heard it reported that we drained the lake or that there was water already there. That's not the case. Studies had been done on the site previously, but when we started to prepare the site--we'd been digging to prepare the ground for the trailers--an underground spring came up through the digging and we had to drain that spring toward a lake that was there. So we put in culverts. And the cost you're referring to, sir, is the cost of putting in the culverts and redirecting the water from the underground spring to a lake that already existed in the quarry.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Would you have an idea of what that cost was? I believe we heard from the opposition that it was in the millions. I believe I saw something somewhere indicating that it was something like $134,000?

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

It was $144,000.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

That's a long way from $2 million.

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

Yes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

When we talk about costs, Minister, I think we heard about inflation, and trying to make it frivolous--glow sticks. In fact, glow sticks have an important use by the police in communities like the one where these were hosted. Perhaps the RCMP officer can tell us a little bit about what the real need for the glow sticks is.

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

If I may, I was remiss in not thanking the committee in my first response for the opportunity to be here this afternoon. I appreciate the opportunity to clear up some of these questions.

The glow sticks weren't used, actually, by the police. They were used by the Canadian Forces. They have a specific operational purpose. I checked with my colleagues at the Canadian Forces before I came in to ask if it was appropriate to speak about it. It's a very simple answer. They have about an eight-hour shelf life, so you have to replace them three times a day. They use them for marking equipment at night. They are for dangerous areas you are travelling through or if you are doing foot patrols at night and there is a hole or something you have to be conscious of. It is really for the safety of the Canadian Forces members. That's what they were for. They were for marking equipment, such as generators and any kind of outfit we had set up in a wooded area. As you know, the majority of the work of the Canadian Forces was done in heavily wooded areas in the Huntsville area.

The RCMP itself only purchased $350 worth of glow sticks, and that was for an operational requirement that I really can't discuss.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We will now start the second round. I remind you that these are five-minute rounds.

We'll go to Mr. Kania.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

Minister, in your opening remarks today you indicated, “Once these claims are received, the final audits will commence with the intent to have the process completed by March 31, 2011.” Then you indicate that you “will respond to all questions posed on the security budget and costs and will deliver a full financial report on actual costs incurred once available”.

I'm taking you at your word that you want to provide full disclosure to the committee. I'm asking you now for your commitment to come back, once all this information is available, for a full two-hour session before the committee to justify these.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

What I said, in fact—the sentence is right in front of you, and you didn't quote exactly what it said—is this: “I can assure this committee that this government will respond to all questions”. If it's necessary for the minister to be there to deal with those types of details, then the committee will make that determination. I won't make any commitment at this point.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, I understand that you have a lot of persons you rely upon for advice. But you will agree with me that decisions in terms of what is going to be spent—taxpayers' money—and where summits are going to be held are political decisions that at the end of the day are made by members of Parliament, and more specifically, by the government and the minister. It is not for the advisors to make these decisions; it is for the government to make these decisions, correct?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

The government relies on experts to make determinations. Ultimately, determinations are made on the recommendations of these individuals.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Of course. I agree that you have to take into account the recommendations of persons and experts. But at the end of the day, it's your decision. It's the government's decision. They are not elected, and they don't control taxpayers' money; you do. So it's your decision, correct?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Ultimately, the government is responsible for the expenditures based on the decisions that were made.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

I would like to know why the government, based on all of the recommendations it received, decided to split the G-8 and G-20 summits between Huntsville and Toronto rather than hold it in one location. What was the thought process?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

In this case I can advise you that we followed exactly the advice of the experts we retained. Mr. Elcock can provide you with exactly the reasons we did that.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Are you telling me that you essentially were told what to do by the experts? I'm asking you why you decided to agree with their decision? By what thought process did you decide that this was right or wrong, and why did you agree and make this decision?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Because Mr. Elcock made a convincing argument that these recommendations should be followed, and that's the basis on which we made the final decision.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Based on your memory, what's the convincing argument that you, as the responsible minister, and the government decided to accept to come to this decision? Why did you make this decision?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I don't have those notes before me, but what I can assure you is that the recommendations that were made by Mr. Elcock and others were exactly the reasons that we followed in making the determination. I can have Mr. Elcock repeat, for your edification, the reasons that were given.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

We can do that later. Thank you, Minister.

As we sit here today, what you're telling me then is that you cannot recall what the recommendations were that led you to make the decision to split the summits between Huntsville and Toronto. Is that accurate?