Public Safety Committee on Oct. 25th, 2010

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Was that your advice, though?

[Ward Elcock]

There was a stream of security advice. There was also advice coming from the Senate management office, the Department of Foreign Affairs, and others, regarding the best site, because there are a number of issues that cross departmental and agency lines.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'll try just one more time, for just a yes or no. He said that it was your advice, and he referred to you. He said it was your decision, your advice, and that he just did what you said. Was that your advice, and would you do it again?

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, at the end of the day, the minister is the Minister of Public Safety, and the advice that he would have received from me was on the issue of security. I wasn't advising the minister which was the best site to choose from a foreign affairs point of view or which specific venue could actually be made to look like a meeting site. That was the Senate management office. At the end of the day, my responsibility was looking after the security.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Elcock.

We'll now move to Madam Mourani and Monsieur Gaudet.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Is Mr. Gaudet also entitled to five minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

No. Together you have five minutes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Elcock, did you provide any advice as to the treatment of the demonstrators, as to the way the demonstrators were to be treated, and to the type of place where they were to be held, etc.? Was that part of the advice that you gave?

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, it is not my responsibility nor the Privy Council Office's responsibility, and, as the minister said earlier, not his to give direction to the police. The police know how to manage. They know what the appropriate rules are. They have organizations that oversee them. They have organizations that review them. I don't issue directions to the police as to how they should manage demonstrators. Those are issues with which the police deal.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. MacNeil, could you tell me whether the University of Toronto gymnasium is a site of interest?

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

I can't speak specifically of what occurred in Toronto on that day. I was not there. I was not present for that particular aspect of the investigation, so I think that question would be better placed with the Toronto Police Service when they come to appear before the committee.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

So you were not responsible for the arrests made in the gymnasium, in Toronto?

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

No. I would not be in charge of the arrests at the gym in Toronto.

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, I think there's an important point to make here that may be at issue a little.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Mr. Elcock.

[Ward Elcock]

Chief Superintendent MacNeil spoke earlier about the command structure. That was how the police were tied together and how they cooperated. At the end of the day, I think it's important for members to understand that each police force, within its jurisdiction, retained responsibility for its jurisdiction, which is why I think Chief Superintendent MacNeil is saying to you that because those events occurred within Toronto, it would be appropriate to direct those questions to the police force that actually had jurisdiction and was responsible for enforcing the law in that jurisdiction.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. MacNeil, were you aware of all of the human rights abuse allegations that were made? What do you think of that?

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

Again, yes, I've heard of the allegations. I would have to wait. Again, there are many reviews going on right now into those allegations. There are investigations. As has been mentioned earlier by the minister, there is a reporting process for each person who feels they have a complaint to make. I really couldn't pass opinion on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Gaudet, you have two minutes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you very much, that will be adequate.

If I understand correctly, neither you, nor the lady, nor the minister were responsible. In your opinion, who would be responsible? You said that each police officer was responsible. When everyone is responsible, no one is. I cannot comprehend the Minister of Public Safety telling me that he is not responsible for anything. If that were true, we would no longer need a minister.

A little earlier, the minister stated that the Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police was responsible. The problem is that we don't see him. You are all saying that you were not responsible, but who is responsible for what? Are we going to get an answer some day? Four months have elapsed. I hope that the police officers from Montreal who went to work in Toronto have now gone back to Montreal. I cannot understand how, after four months, you have not yet submitted an invoice.

I do not know if there are still police officers on site in Toronto to verify was is going on, but your system has some major problems. Indeed, your system is very poorly organized, and this is what we call our public safety system! For example, we have only to look at the RCMP inquiries into the Air India affair, in 1988, for which we have yet to have an answer after three investigations. We really have a major problem. We should do as the Auditor General of Canada has done and ask for a government response and not a response from a minister. Earlier, the minister told me that he was not aware of anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. MacNeil, do you want to try that one?

[C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil]

Well, I can tell you what I'm responsible for, if that would help. I was responsible, as the Integrated Security Unit commander, for putting together the security system for the G-8/G-20. What that meant is that I couldn't do it myself. The jurisdiction for the G-8 was OPP jurisdiction. The jurisdiction for the G-20 was Toronto police jurisdiction. Peel Regional Police has jurisdiction for the airport where all the leaders landed. The Canadian Forces have a unique capability that they bring to all of these events.

In addition, because we didn't have enough police officers in those specific police services that I just mentioned, we had to bring in police officers from all over Canada. My role was to ensure all of that was coordinated.

When it comes to a specific arrest or the detention of a specific individual, I have to defer to the person who made that arrest. I cannot speak on their behalf. No police officer can speak on another police officer's behalf in that regard.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You must have been responsible for something, Mr. MacNeil. You stated that you had worked on the organization in 2008. I find there's a problem within the RCMP. You never provided any answer whatsoever to the government's questions, whether it be about the sponsorship scandal or anything else. We never get any answers from you except—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Gaudet. I've already given you an extra minute and a half, and I'm glad I did; it was good.

Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to continue on that. We're talking about the G-8 and G-20 summits. This was a federal exercise, and there are no federal inquiries going on, save what's happening at this committee. Every other board that's looking into this is either provincial or municipal.

We have before this committee the Minister of Public Safety. We have the special advisor, Mr. Elcock. We have the national security advisor to the Prime Minister. We have the commander of the Integrated Security Unit. And all I hear is that someone else has the answers.

I'm going to try to be focused here.

Mr. Elcock, the question that Mr. Kania was asking you about asking the minister was about the choice of two sites. My understanding of the minister's evidence was quite clear. He was very clearly saying that this was your advice to him, to have two sites.

Is that correct, or not? Was that your advice?