Evidence of meeting #37 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was port.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stephen Rigby  President, Canada Border Services Agency
Cathy Munroe  Vice-President, Programs Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
Garry Douglas  President and Chief Executive Officer, Plattsburgh-North Country Chamber of Commerce
Barry Orr  Border Customs Compliance Manager, Leahy Orchards Inc.
Ron Moran  National President, Customs and Immigration Union
Martin Dupont  Chief Administrative Officer, Drummondville Economic Development Society
Réal Pelletier  Mayor, City of Saint-Armand, As an Individual
Jean-Pierre Fortin  First National Vice-President, Customs and Immigration Union

November 1st, 2010 / 4:10 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Stephen Rigby

It's not ultimately my decision to open and close a port. It's not something I can unilaterally do. But I can assure you that if volumes begin to change, if they shift across the entirety of our operations, we're constantly watching that. If we close a port, we can't watch for changes in volumes that aren't there anymore, but we would watch for volume changes in the adjacent ports where we are redirecting traffic. We would have continuing discussions with our American colleagues in the normal course of watching the volume flow across the border. So the answer would be yes.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Tonks.

Ms. Mendes, very quickly.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

There is currently a plan to shut down two ports of entry in Quebec, whereas a government bill is currently under review in the House. What I would like to know is how we can combat human trafficking at the same time that we are shutting down two border crossings. I cannot see how those two goals can be reconciled.

4:10 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Stephen Rigby

I don't necessarily reconcile them in comparative terms.

The human smuggling bill looks at the sorts of flows that we have seen in terms of mass migration, which is largely mass marine migration. The sort of irregular migration that we see across the land border tends to be much, much lower. It tends to manifest itself in terms of people coming in often in regular fashion on a regular visa of one sort or another that then lapses, and they present themselves for refugee status at one of our inland offices. So it's a different kind of migration.

So the kinds of efforts that are being pursued in terms of large-scale irregular migration I would say predominantly manifest themselves in the marine mode, as we're seeing in the case of the Sun Sea and the Ocean Lady, and to a lesser extent in the air mode, where we can have, as we saw in the Mexican example, somewhat large-scale irregular migration through air prior to the imposition of the visa. But it's not nearly as much in the land border.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Rigby.

Mr. Norlock and Mr. McColeman, very quickly, and I'm going to go back to Mr. Gaudet today.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Rigby. Thank you to all of the witnesses for coming today.

Mr. Rigby, when you talked about the question of security, that you make sure that you take security into account, would you also be referring to CBSA's relationship to IBETs, the integrated border enforcement teams? And am I right in telling folks that you are part of that team not only with the RCMP but also U.S. Customs and Border Protection, the U.S. Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services, and the U.S. Coast Guard? Are they all part of that organization? Did you talk to them about Canada's security and your ability to keep Canadians secure when you made this decision?

4:10 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Stephen Rigby

Certainly we are a member of the IBETs partnership, yes. Certainly we are in constant dialogue with U.S. CBP and U.S. ICE, and with a number of other American border and national security organizations as well.

At the same time, I think I can safely say that we have constant outreach with a number of industry stakeholders with whom we talk about threat and risk profiles, the sorts of things that they are seeing from a trade chain security point of view. So all of these things go into our constant dialogue and our constant efforts to refresh the security and risk profile across the border as a whole.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you for being here today.

I won't repeat the actual numbers that my colleague across the way went over. Obviously the statistics tell the whole story here in my mind that these are underused border crossings, if in a 24-hour period we have the kinds of numbers we're talking about.

I just want to commend you, actually, in this time of fiscal restraint and austerity, for taking the view to recommend that we do change and restructure things to be more efficient. I think this is what Canadians expect of us, actually, to look at underused resources and to reallocate where it makes sense and where these border crossings are in proximity to other close border crossings that can be utilized.

I've met you at a conference involving border security issues, Mr. Rigby, and I know that at that conference there were a lot of commercial traffic issues that were brought up by various business interests on both sides of the border. I'm wondering, in your deliberations in terms of their needs, the needs that would affect both the U.S. and the Canadian economies, how they have weighed in to your decisions or your recommendations here.

4:15 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Stephen Rigby

In terms of how we weighed our analysis in the context of the entire strategic review, the discussions that we have on an ongoing basis with industry, with stakeholders, with people who run bridges, with the tunnel operator in Windsor--all of these discussions, all of these predictions are taken into account on an ongoing basis.

Certainly they formed part of the deliberation, part of the analysis that went into the formulation of our recommendations, in terms of front-line infrastructure. I cannot tell you absolutely that we had specific advice in terms of the three small ports that we're looking at, but in terms of the constant balancing that we're looking at of human resource investments at different locations, those sorts of deliberations are ongoing and constant.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

I have a last comment, Mr. Chair, if you'll allow me.

The $58.4 million in overall savings to be reallocated is something that I think is hugely commendable to your organization.

4:15 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Stephen Rigby

Thank you very much.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. McColeman.

Mr. Gaudet.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You motto is “Protection, Service, Integrity”. I would like to try and understand the system. What is your current budget?

4:15 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Stephen Rigby

It's approximately $1.5 billion or thereabouts.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

There is something I don't understand. On the U.S. side, in Churubusco, repairs and construction work are underway. On the Canadian side, you are preparing to shut down the border crossing. Are you sure you have discussed this with your U.S. counterparts? I am not so sure.

If you say you have discussed it with them, then there is a big problem, sir. If they are making repairs while we, on our side, are planning to shut down the port, then there really is a major problem. We will be locking the doors just as they are putting up a building.

4:15 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Stephen Rigby

Well, sir, I can assure you that I am in constant communication with my U.S. colleagues. I can also assure you that the commissioner of CBP has a budget that is substantially greater than mine in terms of his ability to bring assets to bear on the 49th parallel.

That said, I am completely confident in the ability of the CBSA to provide good, secure service to Canadians on the 49th parallel. But I cannot comment, and it would be inappropriate of me to comment, on the budget decisions that are made by my counterpart.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Are you done? I'll give you another one, Mr. Gaudet.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

I have one other brief question.

Have you measured the economic impact of closing these three border crossings—maybe not the one that has an average of only four travellers per month, but the other two—in Quebec? I think that's quite important.

Have you measured the economic impact of this?

4:15 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Stephen Rigby

It's very difficult to measure precisely what the economic impact would be. We certainly looked at the number of commercial releases, which, for example, in the case of Franklin Centre, averaged, for the last period we looked at, around two and a half per day. So it is relatively low in terms of total commercial throughput.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

I agree with you.

However, if the Franklin Centre land border office shuts down, they will go somewhere else. They may go to the U.S. side. That may be what you would like to see happen. But I see this as a major problem. In light of your motto, “Protection, Service, Integrity”, I have to say I have a major problem with that, Mr. Rigby.

I have no further questions.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Gaudet.

Thank you, Mr. Rigby, Ms. Munroe, and Monsieur St-Laurent for coming here today. You have given us a little bit of background on this issue.

We have other guests who are waiting to give some testimony, so we will suspend for approximately one minute. We'll allow our guests to take leave and invite our next guests to come to the table.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right. We'll call this meeting back to order.

We're going to continue our study of changes to the services offered by the Canada Border Services Agency. With us in this final hour today we have, from the Plattsburgh-North Country Chamber of Commerce, Garry Douglas, president and chief executive officer; from Leahy Orchards Inc., Barry Orr, the border customs compliance manager; from the Customs and Immigration Union, Ron Moran, national president, and Jean-Pierre Fortin, first national vice-president; and from the Drummondville Economic Development Society, Martin Dupont, chief administrative officer. Finally, appearing as an individual we have Réal Pelletier, mayor of the city of Saint-Armand.

I understand that each of you has an opening statement. Maybe we could begin with Mr. Douglas. Are you prepared to begin?

4:20 p.m.

Garry Douglas President and Chief Executive Officer, Plattsburgh-North Country Chamber of Commerce

Thank you. I appreciate this opportunity. I also serve as the co-leader of the Quebec–New York Corridor Coalition, which is a broad public partnership of government and business interests in Quebec and New York with a shared interest in the border.

I'm going to take things to a higher level because I know my colleagues here are going to address some of the very specific impacts on the ground in the affected region. I think everybody here agrees there is probably nothing more important to the U.S. and Canada economically, socially, and in many other respects than our connection at the border between our two countries and our two peoples.

The accords and agreements of the last several years have established very firmly a commitment in principle by both countries to recognize that it is a shared border, not two borders that sit alongside each other separately, and that the decisions need to be collegial, joint, and bilateral. I'm the first to admit that the U.S. has messed up on that front many times. The western hemisphere travel initiative of last year is certainly an example of that--an example of unilateralism and all of us having to get with the program because unilaterally one government made such a decision. However, the principle remains, and we're always, all of us in the field, trying to drag our government, as many of my colleagues in Canada do, to come back to that principle of bilateralism and collegiality in all decisions on the border, whenever one government or the other strays from that and goes into a mode of unilateralism.

In the Quebec–New York region, we have had enormous success in working with the U.S. government in particular to make the border work as efficiently as it can. We obtained $109 million from the U.S. Congress for the remarkable new U.S. commercial and passenger car facilities at Champlain, New York, which has now made it the premier U.S.–Canadian border crossing. We have zero truck delays at Champlain, thanks to the immensity of the investment the U.S. government made there in recognition of the importance of the border in the New York–Quebec area. We doubled CBP staffing across most of the border, but particularly at Champlain, at a time when Canada seems to be stuck in place. We heard a word that troubled me greatly in the remarks that were just made, that you're not looking at moving personnel around, but eliminating CBSA personnel through attrition, while the U.S. has doubled its personnel to help make the border work.

We have deployed all new technologies and accelerated clearance programs, and we have a very collaborative relationship with CBP in terms of trying to reduce dwell times at Lacolle and the other border crossings, even through creative approaches. For example, we have finally deployed a French-speaking training program for U.S. CBP personnel assigned at Champlain to help reduce dwell time by making conversations and interactions easier and faster; we have just built the remarkable facilities at Massena; and we have updated facilities across the northern New York border crossings, such as at Rouses Point, where two entirely new booths and new roadways have recently been constructed--and on and on. The commitment, with a lot of ground support, has been tremendous across the New York part of the New York–Quebec and the New York–Ontario border in northern New York.

As one who has worked passionately to give Canada premier gateways in our region, I feel qualified to say, even as an outsider from the other side of that border, that I remain underwhelmed by Canada's commitment to the border, and particularly underwhelmed by its commitment to the border at New York with Quebec. It doesn't begin to rise to equity with the priority status that clearly the U.S. government has assigned to that same region for purposes of social and commercial interaction, and that's profoundly sad. To hear, as I said, that we not only are not seeing the Canadian government commit to steadily building its resources and commitment at the border, but instead to cutting the very personnel levels that already are woefully inadequate and woefully behind the U.S. commitment is indeed troubling.

How is all this relevant to Franklin Centre? I believe the action of announcing these three intended closures next spring raises very legitimate concerns for this committee in terms of a fresh outbreak of unilateralism, which is bad, is negative, and is destructive to the relationship on all levels in terms of trying to operate a shared border. There needs to be a pause to think about that. We expect Canada to be better than the U.S., frankly, when it comes to avoiding acts of unilateralism. Please don't mimic the bad behaviour of our government in some cases at the border. Show them once again how to lead in the fact that these should be bilateral decisions. This was not a bilateral decision in any way, shape, or form.

Our member of Congress in our area, William Owens, is a member of the U.S. home and security committee, your counterpart in the U.S. Congress. He was blindsided by this. We were all blindsided by this--blindsided all the more because just before that, it announced the awarding of contracts for $6.8 million worth of new facilities at one of the border crossings that unilaterally Canada decided wasn't needed anymore, a stunningly bad example of unilateralism.

It raises legitimate questions about the adequacy of Canada's commitment to resources, particularly staffing levels to its border with New York in Quebec. You ought not to be cutting border personnel, ladies and gentlemen; you need to be increasing it in order to make sure the border works effectively. At the end of the day, a border is a service operation and services are conducted by people.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Excuse me. We've gone about 12 minutes. Can I ask how much longer?