Evidence of meeting #61 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
I'd rather not venture an answer on that, if you don't mind. I can undertake to get back to the committee with an accurate response.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
If it does, then the narrow parameters you've set here may be affected by Bill C-45. It may provide greater opportunities for exit control than what's in this bill.
I'll turn the rest over to Mr. Scott.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Bear in mind that we're studying S-7 today, but if there is a relationship between the two, that's fine.
Mr. Scott.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
That was a clear potential relationship. I'm wondering if two existing systems are applicable to this leaving-the-country issue or could be made to be. One is something I know almost nothing about, the advance passenger information, the passenger name record program. The second is the no-fly list. Could you tell us whether either could partly or more extensively be drawn upon as a way of looking for people leaving the country who might have been drawn to your attention earlier by CSIS or RCMP?
I wanted to turn to our friend Mr. Fadden with one quotation from his Senate testimony. He says that the “current structure of the no-fly-list program is such that you have to be a threat to aviation”.
That obviously doesn't fit perfectly here. He goes on to say that his “understanding is that officials are preparing a series of proposals for the ministers to try to make this list a little more subtle”, but that he does “not know where they are on it” .
I'm not assuming you have inside information on what cabinet is considering, but do you know whether discussions or studies are taking place on changing the nature of the no-fly list in relation to this leaving-the-country issue?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Risk Management and Foresight Division, Program Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
I'm afraid I'm not in on the secrets of the gods, as they say.
All I can say is that API/PNR is a series of data information that is provided by the airline companies to Canada, but that's on the way in.
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Risk Management and Foresight Division, Program Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes. This is the information the CBSA uses and applies risk assessment methods to in order to identify high-risk individuals so that they are examined when they come to goods and conveyances.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
I'm sorry to interrupt, but is there nothing about that system that can be tweaked for it to work the other way around? By definition, in that system of planes leaving the country, at some point you are providing that information to their destination countries, and you would just have to speed it up a bit for that information to be available before you leave. Correct?
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Risk Management and Foresight Division, Program Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
That information, if it was provided before wheels up—before the plane departs—would allow us to identify individuals who are on the plane who are suspect, but this doesn't exist at the moment.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
This procedure doesn't exist, but there's nothing—
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Risk Management and Foresight Division, Program Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
We do not have the technical capability at this point.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
At this point, but that is obviously a potential way to expand on that a bit.
Do you see the no-fly list as relevant at all at the moment to the question of this leaving-the-country offence?
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Risk Management and Foresight Division, Program Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
The no-fly list identifies individuals who might pose a potential threat to the conveyance itself.
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Risk Management and Foresight Division, Program Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
It could be potentially relevant. I would have to study this a bit more, but the idea of the no-fly list is to identify individuals who, if they go onto that plane, will cause a threat to the plane itself, not because they are going overseas to carry out some terrorist-related activities.
4:10 p.m.
Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
The thing about the no-fly list that may be worth pointing out is that it applies to an individual who is on the list no matter where he boards a plane, which could be in Canada in order to leave Canada just as well as it could be from abroad to come to Canada.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you.
We'll now move to Mr. Leef, please. This is our second round for five minutes.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both our witnesses for being here today.
Earlier in testimony we heard from Ms. Beauregard from the Integrated Terrorist Assessment Centre. She said that clearly the need for cooperation and information sharing across the Government of Canada is vital to our national security.
Would you agree with that comment, sir?
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Risk Management and Foresight Division, Program Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes, we do agree with this comment. We have two officers seconded to ITAC. We're fully participating in this venture of organizations, and we're providing all the information that is available to us and would be of relevance to the role of ITAC.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
That certainly coincides with some of the testimony we heard, where she mentioned that they acquire information from across the Government of Canada, which includes CBSA, the Communications Security Establishment Canada, the RCMP, Foreign Affairs and International Trade, CRA, the Financial Transactions Reports Analysis Centre, and the Privy Council Office. The list goes on and on.
Mr. Scarpaleggia was asking a bit about your role here. Would you agree, then, that even if bills or legislation don't directly impact your day-to-day operations or your day-to-day mandate, it is essential, given the integration of cooperation in the intelligence community and the security service community, that you're up to date on those changes that are occurring, that you're available and free to comment on those kinds of changes, as you are here today?
4:10 p.m.
Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
I would agree that there are such a number of information-sharing arrangements already in existence between the different parts of the security intelligence community in Canada, and they operate so well on a daily basis, that it's not every time there's a change in legislation that a new MOU is required—because a brand new field of exchange of information has opened up. Very often existing arrangements will suffice.
Does that answer your question?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Yes, and you make it common practice, obviously, when there are legislative changes, whether or not they directly impact on your mandate, to keep abreast of those changes, so you know how that impacts your partner agencies and the people you work with.
4:10 p.m.
Director General, Intelligence and Targeting Operations, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes, absolutely.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
With the specific changes you will be dealing with, is there any cost at all that you know of that's going to impact CBSA?