Public Safety Committee on Oct. 20th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Now to Mr. Scarpaleggia, please.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm still intrigued by how the drugs get into the prison. Going back to a point Mr. Sandhu brought up about having drug-free prisons, I would think you could have a drug-free prison if, as others have suggested, you cut off all access to the outside, you monitor inmate phone calls to their spouses. But obviously I don't think you want to go to that extent. I'm not mistaken in believing that, am I?

[Don Head]

No.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm really intrigued about how syringes get into the institution. I know some are homemade in the institution. I understand that visitors and so on can conceal drugs and bring them in that way, but is it not much more difficult for a visitor to bring a syringe into the institution than a package of cocaine or heroin or what have you? Every visitor would have to go through a metal detector, I imagine. I don't think I could get on a plane concealing a syringe, so I don't quite understand how visitors can bring syringes in. I can understand about the drug substances, but I just don't get it when it comes to syringes.

Are the syringes that are not homemade coming from inside the institution, from the medical clinics, for example?

[Don Head]

I will make just a couple of quick comments on that. Similar to that picture I was showing you, a syringe could be inside that package surrounded by the drugs and put into a body cavity without necessarily causing injury to the individual. The metal density in a syringe is too small. As a matter of fact, I go through the airport right now, and my belt buckle is not overly big but it's more dense than a needle and the detector doesn't go off. I hope I'm not giving away secrets for the airport.

So it is possible. One of the things we have seen is a decrease in the number of properly manufactured syringes coming into the institution; there's been a decrease over the years. But we have seen, as Mr. McLauchlan can testify, that the number of homemade syringes inside has increased.

As for syringes, I want to make a comment because it was made by the previous witnesses. Needles inside the institution are a dangerous thing for us. We have to give my staff protective gloves when they're searching cells because if somebody has even a homemade needle secreted somewhere, if they don't have the protective equipment and they get a puncture wound, they have to go through a very significant protocol at the hospital to take various concoctions to hopefully address any infections they may pick up.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

At the last meeting when you appeared with the head of the correctional officers union I addressed a question to the union chief, Mr. Mallette. I asked if they have guards in the towers at night watching for possible drugs being lobbed into the yards. He said that in some cases they remove the officer from the tower because they need him somewhere else.

It sounds like you have a resource constraint that is preventing you from properly monitoring the prison walls for drugs being lobbed into the yards. Would you say that's correct?

[Don Head]

Yes, it's interesting. When we removed the towers many years ago it was because the threat we were worried about at that time was offenders escaping. We removed the towers because we put in technology around the perimeter—fence detection systems, motion detection systems, and armed mobile patrols—that actually provide us with a better response capability if somebody is trying to escape.

In those years we never worried about the intrusion from the outside-in. This is a new phenomenon over the last five or so years, so this is a challenge for us. In some of our institutions we have put the towers back, and in other cases we've been experimenting with new technology. For example, in Drumheller Institution and one of the institutions in Quebec, we've been experimenting with thermal imaging radar to detect people on our perimeter before they get close to our fences. The early indications of that technology are very positive and we'll be looking at how we can apply that in some places.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

On treatment programs, I've heard that there are many unfilled vacancies for prison psychologists. I'd like to know if that's indeed the case. Is it a question of not being able to find psychologists who want to do that work, or is it because of financial constraints on the prison system?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Scarpaleggia.

Mr. Head, you may answer.

[Don Head]

The issue for us is not necessarily a financial one. It's the availability in the geographic locations of some of our facilities. Places like Port-Cartier, Quebec, are very isolated, and finding a psychologist is even difficult for that town. We have some challenges around where we're located geographically.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. Thank you.

Ms. Hoeppner.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Before we adjourn I would like to make a suggestion.

I don't know about the other committee members, but I know Mr. Scarpaleggia expressed some concern that he's still trying to understand how certain items are smuggled in. I still have a lot of questions. This is a great diagram, a great resource. We probably could have had both of you gentlemen here for a full two hours.

We've just extended our study by another six meetings. I'm going to suggest, through you, Mr. Chair, inviting both of these gentlemen back, if they would consider coming back, so we can have a fulsome discussion. I think we need to get a picture on how drugs are coming in, and outside gang activity. We can't get that in 30 minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thanks very much.

We'd very much like to have Mr. Head back. In his diagram today he includes the demand side of drugs. When he comes back we would very much like to hear about the part of the programming on the ability to reduce the demand for drugs. We'd be quite happy to see him again.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

He could bring the investigator as well--Mr. McLauchlan. It was very beneficial.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. McLauchlan, is the boss going to give you time off to come back?

[Christer McLauchlan]

I'm sure we can arrange something.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. Thank you very much.

Again, thank you all. You asked very good questions.

Thank you, Commissioner and Mr. McLauchlan, for appearing again.

We are now adjourned.