Evidence of meeting #17 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was warden.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
Welcome to both witnesses.
Mr. McCormack, do police services get involved in parole hearings and warden's ETAs, in either one of them, in different ways, or are you involved at all?
5:20 p.m.
President, Toronto Police Association
No, police services generally do not get involved in that.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
When a release is granted, either through the Parole Board or the warden, in both instances are the police in the area where the individual is released notified of the timeframe that the individual will be out and where they're going?
5:20 p.m.
President, Toronto Police Association
We're notified of the conditions and where they'll be released into the communities, but the reality is that....
When we're looking at police resources, for instance, and the strains on police resources, and at how many people we have on the street, this is a constant dialogue in the policing community. Working in the area where I worked, 51 Division Regent Park in Toronto, we had the second-highest density of government housing and rooming housing in North America. We would constantly....
That gets downloaded on the community. We just don't have the resources to continually check up on it.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
I understand that, but what I'm trying to determine is whether there's any difference in terms of how police services are notified in a warden release versus a Parole Board release, or is it the same?
5:20 p.m.
President, Toronto Police Association
We would get notified in the same fashion.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
This question is for both individuals.
From listening to Mr. Grabowsky, I think he certainly sees a public safety issue in terms of the warden release. What's the feeling of police services? Is there a greater public safety issue with a warden release than there is with a Parole Board release?
5:20 p.m.
President, Toronto Police Association
You'd have to back that statement up and.... There definitely would be because of the criteria involved in that release. If we talk about a technical way that we're going to administrate the release, it's quite different from the procedural fairness of getting to that release.
The reason we're arguing to support that it be done through the Parole Board is that these are the people who have the highest threshold in terms of the biggest risk to public confidence, to safety, to the victims. We want to make sure that due diligence is done at that level. Naturally, by virtue of the process, I would want the highest threshold. If you don't meet that highest threshold, then I would say for sure the community would be put at a higher risk by somebody who doesn't apply those basics and those fundamentals.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
Okay.
Turning to you, Mr. Grabowsky, you named a number of cases. In all the cases you named, were they warden granted releases?
5:20 p.m.
President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers
Yes. To my understanding, yes, they were.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
Okay.
I would suggest that it was a pretty astounding accusation you made, and it worries me; you talked about a number of areas, double-bunking, etc., within the Correctional Service of Canada system, but indicating that there is pressure on the wardens as a result of cutbacks in resources, either financial or human, in CSC.
Really, if people are being released by wardens within Correctional Service of Canada due to financial pressures because of government decisions, then that is—
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON
Mr. Chair, I would like to bring the members of this committee back to the purpose of this bill. This certainly does not have to do with any of the things that are being talked about right now.
As well, we just had the commissioner of CSC here, and not once did he actually discuss or bring attention to or infer any of the things that are being talked about right now that have absolutely nothing to do with the content of this bill that this committee is supposed to be here discussing.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
Mr. Chair, I disagree entirely. If wardens are releasing—it was stated by a witness—due to double-bunking, etc., and if there is an issue with wardens releasing individuals due to financial pressure, and putting the public safety at risk, then that is something the minister has to answer to.
It ties into this bill because we are looking at whether warden releases are acceptable. If financial pressures are part of the decision-making in terms of a warden releasing individuals, then we really have a bigger problem than what we started out with.
That's why I'm asking the question.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp
Okay, Mr. Easter. Your question is valid if there is a financial connotation to it, but I might suggest we keep the financial connotation directed to the point that we're asking about, rather than try to spread it through the entire penal and judicial system.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
5:25 p.m.
President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers
The point is I'm saying that we know wardens are facing these pressures; the service is facing these pressures. In that regard, making a decision on a first- or a second-degree murderer's ETA is one pressure we feel this bill takes away from them, that it won't be there. I'm not saying that a warden has made this decision because of that, but that he faces all those pressures in his decision-making. It's something he must balance in a lot of decisions. Population management, period, is a big one. Certainly, cascading an inmate down and getting him reintegrated into society is the service's number one goal.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp
Thank you very much. We're out of time on Mr. Easter's considerations.
We'll now go to Mr. Payne for the remainder of the time.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for attending.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp
Excuse me. We have a representative from the New Democratic Party.
Would you like to—
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
