Evidence of meeting #29 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was looking.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andy Broderick  Vice-President, Community Investment, Vancity Credit Union, As an Individual
James Tansey  Executive Director, ISIS Research Centre, Sauder School of Business, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Gordon Hogg  Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Surrey-White Rock, As an Individual

4:25 p.m.

Prof. James Tansey

I would suggest existing programs and community organizations already support this kind of goal. The St Giles Trust in the U.K. already existed prior to the program, and this partnership allowed it to scale up. I don't think anyone needs to invent new organizations. I think the better approach would be to find what we know to be existing, effective programs and give them an opportunity to scale up through this mechanism.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Okay.

Mr. Broderick.

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, Community Investment, Vancity Credit Union, As an Individual

Andy Broderick

Yes, I would agree, with the one caveat being that the Peterborough approach developed after about eight to ten years of social finance focused energy within Great Britain to develop that sector. Lottery funds had been transferred to a trust to support it. The infrastructure was in place that provided some easier backdrops to support the financing and enable that project to go through. Again it could be done strictly by government, but the creation of intermediaries that have financial heft to step in where the government is less likely to want to, where risk is higher, where reputational risks—we've heard some of the concerns—can be pre-borne by that intermediary to some degree, I think makes some sense.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

I noticed on your website you have something called street youth job action to support homeless youth in Vancouver. I'm not sure if this could be one of those social impact areas. I wonder if you could tell us a bit about it. Do you see this as an example that could help?

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, Community Investment, Vancity Credit Union, As an Individual

Andy Broderick

As I think I tried to point out, there's a lot of activity in my department, and I wish I knew it all. I'm familiar with that program at a high level in terms of engaging youth in the downtown eastside in street employment options. I'm currently serving on the board of the Portland Hotel Society, which some of you may be familiar with, a groundbreaking group in the downtown eastside that ran a number of programs.

To support the point James just made, I think there are a lot of people out there who can understand what is effective. The idea is which of those ideas can be scaled, and how it can be done in a way that will work for the government, or for groups that can find the way to support it. I don't have the details on that particular program. I'd be happy to send them to you.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Thank you.

The comments of my colleague Mr. Easter.... I don't see the government stepping away totally from providing funding. I see the government working with organizations to improve processes so we see much better results right across the country, whether it's in social housing, to help the youth, or stop recriminalizing individuals so they can get involved in the community, get involved in some work, and make a better life for themselves and for their communities.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Your time has expired, so we'll have a chance to respond in other rounds of questioning if that occurs, Mr. Broderick and Mr. Tansey.

We will now go to Mr. Rousseau for the final two minutes of our first hour.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My question is for both witnesses.

Do the models that are currently being tested throughout the world, as well as yours, in British Columbia, provide sufficient positive results in terms of returns for investors, and the prevention of crime and social change, to justify setting up this type of partnership throughout Canada?

Mr. Broderick, could you answer first?

4:30 p.m.

Vice-President, Community Investment, Vancity Credit Union, As an Individual

Andy Broderick

There has been success in sectors other than prisons that point to the fact that this kind of financing can allow innovation to take place in ways that straight government funding is more difficult. Based on my experience in British Columbia, there is justification for the federal government to investigate a number of pilot projects, a number of test investments, to bring change to the prison approach.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Tansey, I have the same question for you.

4:30 p.m.

Prof. James Tansey

I would agree there's sufficient experience to proceed with the next level of experimentation. From the private sector's perspective, one of the things that causes challenges for great small companies that start up with a great idea and have a successful business model is that they grow too fast. Again, I would caution that the growth from strong prototypes and experiments to a national program also needs to be approached cautiously. We have time with a social issue like this to grow patiently and learn from the expansion to other jurisdictions, and grow well, not seek to turn this ship around in two or three years, but recognize it's probably a 10- to 15-year reform process to be able to fundamentally change the overall system.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

That's fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Rousseau. Your time is up.

We have now finished our first hour of hearings. At this time, the chair, on behalf of the entire committee, would certainly like to express our gratitude directly to our witnesses for taking time to share their experiences and obviously their knowledge on this issue.

Gentlemen, we hope you've had a pleasant experience. I know all my colleagues have been very courteous and respectful, so thank you very kindly.

We will now suspend while we change witnesses.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Okay, colleagues, we will resume for the second hour of committee.

We have with us, Mr. Gordon Hogg, a member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, from Surrey-White Rock.

Welcome, sir, to our federal committee. Obviously, you would be familiar with committee structure and procedure. You have up to 10 minutes to make a statement, sir, and then we will open the floor to our members for questions.

4:35 p.m.

Gordon Hogg Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Surrey-White Rock, As an Individual

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, members of the committee.

I hope to provide a little bit of context for social innovation, my experience with it, and my vantage points, a bit about the B.C. experience, and then some ideas that may evolve from that. We've been working on it in B.C. since back in the days of public-private partnerships in the early 2000s. At the time, we were looking at infrastructure development. I was searching for ways that we might be able to impact the delivery of social programs and the delivery of correctional programs.

In 2010 a privately prepared report, called “Mobilizing Private Capital for Public Good”, was released. I had the chance to read it prior to its release. Our finance minister of the day went to a federal-provincial-territorial meeting and came back with a copy of it. Minister Flaherty had given a copy to every finance minister in Canada and said that this was the future of the delivery of social programs, and we had to look at that in services. That issue brought it more into prominence in British Columbia, I think, despite having worked at it for some time.

Policy issues today are even more complex, more horizontal in many ways, and more intractable than ever before. In today's global information economy, every issue facing Canada has an international dimension, as well as a federal, provincial, municipal, local, and aboriginal perspective. On every issue, concerned citizens have a voice. There are many more players in the policy field today than in previous years. This is a good thing. “Governments must be receptive to ideas and inputs from many sources” is a quotation from the 2012 report of the Prime Minister's advisory committee on public service. I think it reflects both the new complexities and the new opportunities that we face as a result of dramatic societal shifts, shifts socially, economically, technologically, and environmentally. Boundaries are blurring. Cooperation, coordination, and collaboration are now keywords in policy development.

From my personal perspective, I have listened to some of your proceedings. You have received testimony from a wide range of experts involved in social innovation and social impact bonds, and there have been some common themes. You have clarified issues with your questions. While you seem to have slightly different perspectives from different members of your committee, you are all searching for ideas and new approaches, as we did in B.C. and continue to do in B.C.

My interest in public policy as it applies to crime reduction comes from working as a youth probation officer in the streets of Surrey, riding with the RCMP in a floater car that was called to all the youth gang and domestic violence issues. I was the one who went out in the car to respond to those issues. It comes from being a board member of some 15 non-profit societies and service providers. It comes from being a foster parent with some five adolescents, some who had significant conflicts with the law. It comes from being a warden at B.C.'s largest youth custody jail for over 10 years, and talking to thousands of youths who were in custody, who were repeat offenders, and who in too many cases were going on to adult prisons.

Through most of this time, for 35 years, I also worked on crime reduction as a city councillor, as a mayor for 10 years, as an MLA, and as a minister in three different ministries, including as Minister of Children and Family Development. I tried to learn other practices and theories while working through that process.

I think my experience in policy development at the provincial level, and I think perhaps it also applies to the federal level, is that we as politicians never get close enough to an issue to understand and experience it viscerally and emotively or far enough away from it to see the patterns that start to exist there. I've worked hard at trying to get to both ends of that continuum. I'm currently finishing off my doctorate at Simon Fraser University, looking at the issue of public policy and how we can look at public policy as a motivator for a subjective sense of well-being, how we can manage that.

We have all faced new challenges, economic downturns, fewer resources, and we have reached for new approaches to old problems. We have historically relied on governments and foundations to solve our problems. I think it's time we engaged citizens and communities in looking at some of those solutions.

In 2002, public-private partnerships, as I mentioned, gained prominence in B.C., and we formed Partnerships BC to shift some of our risk on infrastructure development to the private sector. We searched for ways to leverage dollars for social health and education programs to help address some of our growing social problems in new ways, and we certainly had challenges in that.

In 2005 our throne speech talked about social innovation. We didn't get very far with it as a result of our good intentions. In 2010 I was appointed the Parliamentary Secretary for Social Innovation. I have just provided a copy of that report to the clerk with the 11 recommendations that are contained therein.

Cooperation, coordination and collaboration, and transparency became the useful principles in terms of looking at that, and as we've been working on it, we've tried to use those principles in our legislature as well.

I was invited on two occasions to brief the NDP caucus on the issues of social innovation.

I had meetings with the president of the B.C. Government and Service Employees' Union looking at it. I noted that the federal union president said there are 10 reasons to oppose social impact bonds. I've looked at those, and I respectfully disagree with a number of his assumptions or presumptions in that.

We have looked at crowdsourcing. We implemented something we call BC Ideas. This was to ensure that we are actually looking at things across the province, and looking at small communities and the ability of small communities to respond to and take advantage of the opportunities that exist in social innovation, social enterprise, and social impact bonds.

We had over 400 entries in our BC Ideas. We have references to what those look like and how we've been able to respond to those on some of the issues in small communities. We had donations of funding that allowed us to allow those ideas from small communities on their social issues and how they might take those to scale, how they might have those funded. We have had, through the Ashoka model, international experts who came in and helped local communities to look at and respond to the types of things they might do.

Certainly, social impact bonds, social innovation, is moving very quickly. The U.S. Senate has just held hearings on social innovation, particularly on social impact bonds. A number of states are looking at the models around that. I was asked to present at the Canadian Congress on Criminal Justice, a biennial event hosted by the Canadian Criminal Justice Association, last November on social impact bonds, and did so. I invited two people who appeared before you with respect to that. One was from MDRC Rikers Island. That person and Shawn Tupper came to present some of that with me.

We've also held our first aboriginal conference on social innovation, or actually the aboriginal community held that and I was invited to speak, and look at and manage that.

The process that we followed was we established the BC Social Innovation Council in January 2011. The Speech from the Throne in October committed us to holding a summit on social innovation. We released a report entitled “Together: Respecting our Future”. British Columbia held its summit in November 2011. We had three premiers present at that and were able to have a number of discussions with them. Our premier, Premier Clark, sent a letter to all premiers of Canada to promote social innovation nationally, and British Columbia introduced legislation to create community contribution companies.

The models in British Columbia and in most provinces in Canada are the non-profit model and the business model, the corporate model. We created something in the middle, loosely modelled after the British model of community interest corporations, and we think we've improved on that.

A community contribution company is somewhere between those two. You can sell shares in a community contribution company. You can do business and you can own businesses, which non-profits cannot. You can distribute, in our model, 30% of any annual profits you have to shareholders, and if it is dissolve, all the assets go to the social purpose with respect to that.

We are currently working on our venture capital act. Most governments use venture capital acts to have a flow-through tax credit to encourage investment in various sectors that they see as being important. We've primarily used it in both mining and high tech. We believe there is an opportunity to use the venture capital act for a flow-through tax credit.

We use a 30% flow-through tax credit. We think there's an opportunity to use that for looking at health, social, environmental, and educational types of programs.

I've been working with a group of parents of autistic children, who are very interested in taking some more responsibility for the development of the services for their children. They see creating a community contribution company as potentially a way to do that. If they were able to get the flow-through tax credit...for instance, if you put $1,000 into that, you would immediately get a cheque back from government for one-third of that. That is the process.

Our province puts about $32 million to $33 million a year into the venture capital act, and it has traditionally been under-subscribed.

As I mentioned, the Innovation Council presented their action—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Mr. Hogg, could you wrap up? You're going a little over your time.

4:45 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Surrey-White Rock, As an Individual

Gordon Hogg

Okay. I was getting wound up there.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

There will be plenty of time for questioning, but we are in the presentation environment and your time is pretty important.

4:45 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Surrey-White Rock, As an Individual

Gordon Hogg

And I timed myself before. Okay. I'm happy to wrap up, then, and as we say in our legislature—and I'm sure you say in yours—it's question period, not answer period, so I'll be able to respond as I so choose to questions provided.

Thank you, Chair.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Mr. Hogg. We appreciate that. We will start the seven-minute rounds.

Mr. Richards, please, for seven minutes.

June 10th, 2014 / 4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

We appreciate you being here today.

It's my understanding that you're a member of the government, obviously, as you're a Liberal MLA, but you mentioned that you had briefed the NDP caucus in B.C. on this on a couple of occasions. I was curious about that. Would that indicate to the committee that there is fairly broad support? Is it something that across party lines is considered a promising approach in British Columbia? Can you give us a bit more of a sense of that?

4:45 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Surrey-White Rock, As an Individual

Gordon Hogg

Yes. I was government caucus chair when I took on that responsibility of meeting with them.

The caucus chair for the NDP government, Shane Simpson, was and continues to be a good friend. We were looking at different models for doing that. Among the principles of innovation are coordination, cooperation, and consultation. I wanted to apply that in the process in which we went forward with that. The president of the BCGEU, Darryl Walker, was also very interested. He happens to also be a friend of mine.

We were able to look at it, and they were very interested, both the union and the NDP. In fact, I briefed them as a group of caucus members on two occasions. I think I met individually with two or three other members of their caucus as well in answering their questions. They certainly looked at it. I think it's fair to say that they were pretty amenable to it as a direction for something they wanted to explore and be a part of as well.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

So it is in fact something that's considered a promising model across party lines, then, in British Columbia.

4:45 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Surrey-White Rock, As an Individual

Gordon Hogg

I think that's fair.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Okay.

I wanted to touch on some of what you've said there as well. I think part of what's promising and important in these models is the ability for communities to define what needs they see that must be addressed and to tailor some programming to the local needs.

You mentioned in your opening remarks that you were a former mayor as well. I think you have an interesting perspective here on that particular point, as both an MLA and a former mayor, in terms of the ability for communities to specifically tailor the programming to meet their needs locally.

I wonder if you could comment on the use of community collaboration in these models and how that might be beneficial for communities all across the country.

4:45 p.m.

Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Surrey-White Rock, As an Individual

Gordon Hogg

I don't know whether we can borrow from the infrastructure models that have been used federally, provincially, and locally for decades in terms of the one-third sharing, but certainly for the local governments, and in my experience as a mayor, we were also very concerned about crime, crime reduction, and recidivism. As you are probably aware, the local government is much closer to the people than we tend to be. There were always a lot of comments with respect to that.

I think being able to engage the local community in a tripartite model, perhaps similar to the infrastructure model, is a workable model. I also think that what we did with what we called BC Ideas, which is the Ashoka model, is important.

At Ashoka, they've been involved in social innovation and crowdsourcing for over two decades. They're the real leaders in that. With the G-8 summit, I believe in Seoul, they were asked to look at using their Changemakers model to look at what might be the outcome. I believe one of the legacies of that was over a billion dollars to developing countries and children in poverty in developing countries. That came out of an Ashoka model. It's a well-experienced model and a well-accepted model, and I think that also adds to.... There are a lot of parts of our province that are unincorporated, and I think we also need to be able to make these opportunities available to them.

I'm not sure that I'm getting at exactly the answer you want, but certainly there is a role for all levels of government. There's also an important role for service providers and for financial....

When I created the Social Innovation Council, I put three chairs in charge of it, which was against my better judgment in terms of looking at organizational models. One chair was from service providers. One was from government. The third was from the business community. They provided that type of balance and ensured there was that type of equity as they went forward. I think that was an important balance to put in place to ensure that we actually were able to come to some type of agreement. Again, I think that reflects the conversations we've had with the opposition in Victoria as well.