Public Safety Committee on Oct. 8th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Fine.

Thank you very much, Minister.

Now we will go to Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you I'd like to thank the witnesses for attending today.

My questions will be mainly for Commissioner Paulson.

One issue Canadians look at, which in the past has caused problems with regard to investigations, etc., is cross-jurisdictional cooperation and information sharing. I wonder if you could share with us the nature of your relationships with other jurisdictions such as municipal or provincial police and more importantly with CSIS. Is there a formal integrated program that you access, perhaps on a daily or frequent basis, to make sure there are basically no firewalls between jurisdictions that would cause information that could be important to not be received?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Mr. Chairman, thank you for the question.

I would say first of all, with respect to the relationship with CSIS, that we've demonstrated that both CSIS and the RCMP have a highly tuned, sophisticated exchange of information, which has resulted in several successful arrests and prosecutions in recent years. So I would say that the relationship with CSIS has been refined to a point where it is highly reliable and functioning well.

With respect to other law-enforcement agencies in the country, there are a number of mechanisms we rely upon to ensure that we do have the timely flow of information and the ability to inform the law-enforcement community about trends and the nature of the evolving threat. As I mentioned earlier, the counterterrorism information officer program has certainly been subscribed to by all major police forces.

We co-chair the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police committee on counterterrorism, which is really the central hub of the policy development or practice and refinement of our practices. In our integrated national security enforcement teams, when we are in a big city like Toronto, which has quite an elaborate police force of its own, we are able to work with it, the Ontario Provincial Police, and others to accomplish what we need to accomplish.

I'm very comfortable with and confident in the nature of the relationships both within law enforcement and especially between the service and the RCMP.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

The other part, which I think my constituents and Canadians would like to know—and we don't always read about them, though we may read about specific cases—is how many terrorist-related offences the RCMP has made arrests in connection with. Without getting into specifics of possible investigations, are you currently involved in investigations that are worrisome to you, that appear to be perhaps bigger than you earlier anticipated? When I say “bigger”, I'm talking about the potential for significant harm to Canada.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

As the minister has indicated, and certainly as my colleagues all understand and I'm sure you do as well, the threat of terrorism is a real priority for law enforcement and for the government as well.

I would say with respect to our successful arrests and prosecutions, the record stands for itself. There have been numerous arrests and prosecutions. I would say now though—and I would include CSIS in this, because we are joined at the hip in how we manage a response to the threat, and I used to run national security at the RCMP—the pace and tempo of operations is fairly brisk. We're operating probably about 63 active national security investigations on 90 individuals who are related to the travelling group—either people who intend to go or people who have returned and have been referred to us by the service—so the pace and tempo of operations is quite brisk.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I should add, as I meant to conclude, that it's nothing that Canadians need to be alarmed about. I think we are managing, through our collective efforts, with a response that is appropriate to the nature of these suspected offences, but it is at a brisk pace and tempo.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you. As a result of a couple of those statements, I'm going to switch over to Minister Blaney now.

Minister Blaney, having been on the public safety committee for some time and having worked with you as a minister recently, I wonder if you could tell Canadians about some of the balancing that governments have to do. We're dealing with serious threats such as terrorism and yet we want to maintain a society in which we respect the rights of Canadians while doing our best to protect their safety. Could you tell me about some of the concerns you have as a legislator working with your cabinet colleagues when you are trying to ensure that we protect Canadians while at the same time respecting their freedoms and how sometimes the two can somewhat clash?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I thank you for your question. We live in a state of law.

It is extremely important that we adopt legislation that clearly defines the authority, roles, and responsibilities of both our law enforcement agencies and our national security agencies so they can clearly operate within the scope of the law. That's why when we see a direct threat to Canada from terrorist organizations, and specifically from the Islamic State, we need to be able to table legislation that clearly defines the mandate and also enables the agencies to appropriately protect Canadians.

That being said, we have with us this afternoon two very critical agencies, including the department that is monitoring and overseeing many activities, but there are more than 20 government agencies involved in the terrorism strategy. They range from CBSA, for border controls, to Finance, to stop those who could be tempted to provide money to terrorists. They include Health Canada, regarding possible terrorist attacks. So it's a broad approach. They've been working together.

We have to remain vigilant, but there are mechanisms in place, and there's a broad government approach. Of course, prosecuting and gathering intelligence are critical. Another bridge that is critical is to convert this intelligence into evidence that can be laid in front of the courts. For this, I see that the RCMP is being successful as we see the number of cases and charges and sentences increasing, especially with the tools we are providing. As legislators, we need to provide them the tools and give them clear authority, so they can work within the scope of the law. That is our part of successfully countering terrorism.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Mr. Blaney. We're a little over the time now.

We will now go to Mr. Easter, please.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming, Minister, and thank you to the security and policing organization heads as well.

I don't think, Mr. Minister, that any objective observer would believe that a single meeting of this committee in any way constitutes a careful examination of this threat of radicalization in Canada. I don't think one single meeting is enough.

Mr. Chair, as you know, I have a motion on the floor that basically asks for a subcommittee of this committee to call the people who are here before us today to testify, but also to invite other interested and concerned stakeholders from across the country to testify on the extent and consequences of radicalization activities in Canada.

I believe, Mr. Minister, that you mentioned—I didn't catch the name—a group that is also doing some research and that I think that committee should also meet with. I would hope, Mr. Minister, that you would think it's definitely our duty as parliamentarians as well to look further into this issue, and I'd hope that you would encourage your colleagues.

Mr. Chair, I want to bring forward that motion which, I'll inform you now, will be at the start of the next meeting we hold.

I would hope that you could support us in that, Minister.

I will turn to an issue that I think you, Mr. Minister, and your parliamentary secretary have put in the news, and that is the Al Sunnah mosque, as I believe it's called, in Montreal. I have before me a document from the Department of Defence marked “Secret” that was leaked, but it has been in the public domain. It's about the imam who was there. I believe allegations were made that the mosque was a recruiting site.

Given that both you and the parliamentary secretary—and that's been in the public domain for some while through intelligence from the Five Eyes that we cooperate with—can you expand for this committee today on the threats related to that mosque, and secondly, what your has government done on that file?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you for your question.

This afternoon, I provided you with a report on the terrorist threat, in both official languages. I invite you to read through it. Canada has published a very detailed report on terrorist threats.

I want to draw your attention to the statement I made. I feel that the threat of terrorism is our top national security issue. That is why we, as legislators, must do everything we can to combat this terrorist threat. As parliamentarians, you know that I am very proud to have supported measures to revoke the citizenship of those who have dual citizenship and who are engaging in terrorist activities.

As a Canadian citizen, I don't want people using a Canadian passport for terrorist purposes. When people come here, adopt Canadian values, use a Canadian passport, take an oath of allegiance and then turn against the society that has welcomed them, I call that treason. The judge shares my opinion. As politicians, I think we need to be tough and we need to equip ourselves with the tools to combat terrorism.

To respond to your question, when it comes to operational matters, we as politicians have the duty to provide guidance and develop tools but leave it up to law enforcement agencies to take the appropriate action with respect to prosecution and intervening in potentially illegal activities.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Minister, I'm not asking you to explain again your number one priority. It's our number one priority, too, these terrorists and the radicalization that put at risk Canadians and others around the world. I'm asking you what action you're taking, because that issue has been in the news for some time. You've mentioned the mosque, your parliamentary secretary has mentioned the mosque, and I'd like to know what is behind that statement and what there is.

But let me turn, then, to another subject. You have mentioned that you arrested or charged one individual under the Anti-Terrorism Act. Now, as I understand it, the individual was charged on July 17. My question for you is, has the individual been arrested? He's been charged. My information tells me that in fact he left Canada six months earlier, and in spite of the fact of his being on a no-fly list, he left the country and was charged after the fact. Is that information correct? Has he been arrested and was he on the no-fly list?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Easter, I would like to begin by responding to your first question, which touched on a specific issue.

As politicians, we have a responsibility. If we know that people are inciting hate speech or if we know that there are places where terrorism is being encouraged, we have a duty to formally distance ourselves. That is our number one responsibility as parliamentarians. We live in a democracy. We cannot tolerate people who promote ideas of terrorism and violence. That is unacceptable. That is our number one responsibility.

The second is to equip law enforcement agencies with the necessary tools so that they can neutralize these people and intervene to lay charges against those who might be tempted to recruit others or participate in acts of terrorism.

I want to be clear this afternoon. You yourself mentioned that we have a collective duty to combat terrorism. I hope that we can count on your support when it comes time for us, as elected officials, to take meaningful action to combat terrorism.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

How am I for time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

You have half a minute, Mr. Easter.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Okay. I'm still not getting many answers, Mr. Chair.

Yes, I know all about the issue; I signed some certificates myself, in a former life.

In any event, the head of CSIS mentioned before the national defence committee in the Senate the 130. You mentioned the 80 individuals who have returned to Canada. It's not only the 80 within Canada; anybody who holds a passport, we trust, who has become radicalized, whether it's British, United States, Australia, are a risk to this country, and they're a risk to the others as well.

My question is on those 80 individuals. Have any been arrested? Have any been charged? And how many passports have been detained?

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Very briefly, Minister.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Easter, you asked me to comment on operations of law enforcement agencies. I want to ask you this. Do you accept responsibility for ensuring that our law enforcement agencies have the tools they need? Do you agree that we should revoke the passports of citizens who want to commit acts of terrorism? Do you agree that we should revoke citizenship from people who have been convicted of terrorism? Do you agree that we should equip law enforcement agencies with additional tools?

Mr. Easter, we are politicians. Let's let police officers and those who gather intelligence do their work, but let's give them the tools. Are you ready to do that? Are you and the members of your party ready to distance yourselves from those who incite violence here at home?

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you, Minister Blaney.

Madame Michaud, please.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Minister.

Along the same vein as my colleague, I would like to continue on the theme of preventing radicalization. It is something that concerns all of us here on this committee. In light of the current context, where the government decided to engage us in a military intervention in Iraq, numerous experts have already spoken out publicly about the possibility that this mission could serve as a recruitment tool for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. I don't think the government can ignore that possibility.

I think that we need to enhance our cooperation with community groups and organizations throughout the country. With that in mind, can you tell me what steps are being taken right now to work with communities across the country to prevent radicalization?

I would aks you to be brief since I have some other questions to ask you.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Your question is very broad. Law enforcement agencies, including the RCMP, are engaged in many community outreach activities. Other agencies are engaging as well.

I'd like to briefly remind you that I'm part of the Cross-Cultural Round Table on Security. I have met with leaders from numerous communities. For example, I went to Toronto to meet with leaders of the Somali community. I met with imams and spoke with them. Then, there are the dozens, if not hundreds, of meetings I have attended about this issue. The RCMP is in charge of this. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask Commissioner Paulson to describe the preventative measures that have been put in place.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Thank you, Minister.

As I have already said, we have programs in place but we have also met with communities throughout Canada with our policing partners.

We hold meetings with communities to tell them about the threat and what they should do if they have concerns about members of their community.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Paulson, but I'd like to refocus my question so that I can get a clearer response and hopefully get what I'm looking for.

All meetings aside, were any additional financial or material resources spent to help community leaders intervene when they sense that young people are at risk of being radicalized? The government's 2012 budget announced cuts of nearly $688 million to the Department of Public Safety between now and 2015.

I have a lot of doubts about the possibility of truly reaching out to communities with at-risk youth and giving them tangible help.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

We will dot the i's and cross the t's.

Like all federal agencies, we did an operational review but did not touch services. I want to be very clear about that. All of the operations that have been put in place—and there are a lot because these are federal resources that are being allocated—involve federal public servants, police officers and law enforcement agents who are going into the communities, looking after logistics and organizing meetings.

The list is impressive. Mr. Paulson, I've got to say that you're a bit too humble. I have seen the lists and the hundreds of meetings that have taken place across the country. And that doesn't include RCMP operations. One pillar of our strategy is prevention. That is extremely important. That is why we are dedicating considerable resources to it.

In my speech, I said that hundreds of RCMP officers are counter-terrorism experts. They provide training and are on the front lines to identify individuals who could potentially commit acts of terrorism.

Clearly, we're not going to skimp on the resources we need to combat the terrorist threat.