Public Safety Committee on Oct. 8th, 2014

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Mr. Coulombe, in spite of the media coverage, the extensive videos, and all the kinds of things we've been seeing of the horror of ISIL, there is still a feeling in Canada from some of the people I've heard from that we are not at risk in Canada, but rather that this is isolated to the Middle East and that region.

Would you please comment on how significant the threat of violent extremism is to Canadians?

[Michel Coulombe, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

Thanks for the question.

Mr. Chair, if you bear with me, I'll just quote something:

If you can kill a disbelieving American or European—especially the spiteful and filthy French—or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever...waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way however it may be.

It goes on to say:

Kill the disbeliever whether he is civilian or military—

That's from an audio speech by ISIL released this September.

In the same audio speech, ISIL is also urging its supporters to conduct attacks in their home countries, not in Iraq, not in Syria, but in their home countries.

In addition, if you go back to April, there was a video that you could see on YouTube, which said, “This is a message to Canada...We are coming and we will destroy you”. That was a member of ISIL who is actually a Canadian citizen.

In addition, you have to remember—and this was talked about earlier—that it's not just Canadians who are joining ISIL but also all the other westerners from countries whose passports we trust. They could leave Iraq and Syria and enter Canada to conduct a terrorist attack here. At the same time—and you just have to look at what recently happened in Australia—there is the lone actor. The people who are there never went to Iraq and Syria but were actually inspired by the type of audio speech I've just quoted from and decided to do something in their home country. In Australia a young 18-year-old boy was killed after he tried to stab two police officers. That young boy was actually stopped from travelling and going to Iraq and Syria. A few days prior to that, over 20 Australian citizens were arrested because they were planning attacks, including against civilians whom they would kill and whose bodies they would cover with the ISIL black flag. The threat is real.

As Commissioner Paulson said earlier, we don't want to sound alarmist. We're telling people that they should go about their daily lives, but we have to be vigilant. It is not just a question of a threat here in Canada. It's Canadian interests and Canadian citizens abroad who are also targeted.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you. To call that truly alarming would be an understatement.

Commissioner Paulson spoke about the number of arrests that have been made. Obviously there are real threats to security in this nation. There are reports of some 80 returning foreign fighters who have come back to this country or who are in the process of coming back to this country. I wonder if you could talk about some of the measures that CSIS would take to investigate these types of threats to Canada's national security and what CSIS is actually doing to ensure Canadians' safety.

[Michel Coulombe]

I'd like to start by clarifying—

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

You have one moment, Mr. Coulombe. I'm sorry.

[Michel Coulombe]

Just to clarify one thing—and I did mention this when I appeared in February in front of the Senate committee—when we're talking about 80 returnees, we're not talking about 80 people who fought in Iraq and Syria, and we're not necessarily talking about people who are directly involved in planning terrorist activities. We're talking about people.... We have Canadians in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Lebanon, the Sahel region, and the Maghreb region, who are involved in terrorist activities, but those could be fundraising or propaganda. I don't want people to believe that we have 80 returnees who were hard fighters in Iraq and Syria, because that is not the picture we have at the moment, although we have somewhat—

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Are these purely radicalized extremists who would be a threat to our security?

[Michel Coulombe]

All of them could potentially be a threat, definitely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Fine. Thank you very much.

Now Mr. Scott, you have five minutes.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was wondering if I could touch on the question of those who have gone abroad who can't necessarily return. The terms of reference today deal more or less with those who have returned, but the passports of some who've gone abroad are being revoked. I'm not questioning why that would actually be necessary, since it actually kind of locks them in and means they can't then travel to other countries like France or Germany, etc., but it also leaves them on site. If a Canadian's passport is revoked, by definition can that person not come back?

In that case, what happens to the stories we hear of some Canadians or others who go over and just haven't a clue what they've gotten themselves into? They've been radicalized and brainwashed. They get there and not so long after, they want to come back. Their passport has been revoked. How do we deal with that? Is there some kind of a plan for that?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I'm not sure I understand your question. What I can tell you about passports is that I would defer your question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.

Could you rephrase your question, please?

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Yes.

The first premise is that the Minister of Immigration has indicated that some passports have been revoked for individuals who are currently abroad. So it's not a preventative measure to their going abroad, which is an important part of our tool chest. They're there. They can't come back. So by definition, we're not going to be dealing with them as returnees.

How do we deal with this issue? Once they've left, have we decided that those individuals are lost causes, are either going to be captured or killed or left in Syria or Iraq, or is there some idea about how some Canadians who have their passports revoked and have second thoughts can come back?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

If I may, I would just bridge to.... I think the statement that was made by Mr. Coulombe was pretty clear. What I can appreciate this afternoon is that we can have this discussion about terrorism and also about the threat that represents to Canada. I might remark that those statements that were made by those terrorists were prior to the debate we had in the House of Commons a few days ago, prior to the vote we had yesterday.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Right.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Actually, we are well aware that all parts of the coalition, whether they are humanitarian, combat, air strike, or boots on the ground, are all targeted.

In other words, Mr. Coulombe made it very clear that we cannot bow down to terrorism. This external threat needs to be combatted externally, but we also need to combat it internally. If individuals chose to leave the country in order to commit acts of terrorism, they represent a threat here and abroad, and we must do everything in our power to prevent them from acting. That could include revoking a passport or, if they are found guilty, revoking dual citizenship.

As I said, Citizenship and Immigration Canada is responsible for revoking passports, and this department would do so based on evidence provided by national security agencies and agencies responsible for enforcing the act.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

To the commissioner and then the director, with respect to the Minister of Immigration being the only one responsible, this is supposed to be an integrated approach, right? So maybe the public security minister isn't going to answer exactly about the passport issues, but with respect to the Passport Canada security bureau, the investigative agency that advises the minister about revocation, the simply question I have is whether or not CSIS and the RCMP are integrated into the decision-making process of that bureau. Is there at least that kind of integration to know that there is good intelligence flowing to the Minister of Immigration?

[Michel Coulombe]

Mr. Chair, that's exactly what's happening. We do exchange information not just with Passport Canada and the RCMP, but there is that integration, coordination, and deconfliction, if not daily then at least weekly, on that very specific issue.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

That's good to know.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

That's it, Mr. Scott. Thank you.

Now we'll go to—

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Chair, I just wanted to add a little bit to that answer. I appreciate that we're short of time, so I'll be brief.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Go ahead, and please do be brief.

[Cmmr Bob Paulson]

My colleague was referring to the information exchange. We have biweekly meetings among all of the affected agencies where we look for options to intervene with the high-risk travellers—folks who have not yet gone, folks who we've tried to work with, folks who maybe are approaching the criminal space and we haven't got enough evidence to charge.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

We're looking for alternatives. We've been successful; CBSA and the Passport Bureau and the team have been successful in bringing charges against at least five individuals in respect of passport misuse, a criminal charge.

So we're looking for options within the existing framework of authorities to be able to intervene in accordance with our laws.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you for that clarification.

Ms. Ablonczy, you have the floor, please.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you.

We're all aware, of course, that Britain just yesterday arrested another four individuals on strong suspicion of terrorist intent. The report in The New York Times of that arrest pointed out that in August, Britain raised their classification of the threat level of terrorists to their country to severe, the second-highest classification of threat.

Mr. Coulombe, how would you characterize the threat to Canada right now?