Evidence of meeting #59 for Science and Research in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was universities.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
An hon. member
Is there any time left?
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
We used only about three and a half minutes there, and we have only two people on our panel, so I'm feeling generous.
Mr. Soroka, if you have some questions, we'd like to get back to you.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
That'll be fine.
I'll start off with Ms. Neals.
You spoke about your y-value, and how you've done this. You implemented this in 2017, yet in 2022 there was a strike at the university and it was said that the number one thing was low wages.
Could you comment on whether your y-value program is working or not?
5:05 p.m.
Director, Academic Staff Relations, Dalhousie University
In 2022, we had a strike with our part-time faculty. Those are individuals who teach on a per-course basis. Our full-time faculty—the teachers and researchers who were part of this pay equity adjustment—did not strike in 2022. The issues on the table with that unit are not wages.
I would say that, yes, the program has worked as intended in addressing pay equity gaps.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Are you paying the full-time faculty versus part-time the same, with the equivalence?
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
I meant the idea that if they worked the same number of hours, they would get the same pay—or is that not the case?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Academic Staff Relations, Dalhousie University
It's a bit different. Full-time faculty tend to work what we refer to as the 40-40-20 workload. They spend 40% of their time teaching, 40% of their time researching, and 20% of their time doing service in the universities. That would be sitting on committees, sitting on the university senate and things like that. They receive an annual salary that reflects that work.
Our part-time faculty teach on a per-course basis, so they're assigned one course and they get a stipend for teaching that course.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
These were CUPE strikers. Wouldn't they be full-time faculty?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Academic Staff Relations, Dalhousie University
No. Our full-time faculty are represented by the Dalhousie Faculty Association. Our part-timers are represented by CUPE.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Okay. That's where I wanted clarity, because it wasn't making sense to me.
How much time do I have now, Mr. Chair? I have three minutes left. Okay. That's good to hear. I wasn't certain, because I thought you told me I had only three minutes to start with.
Ms. Neals, do you feel that if they did the y-value right across Canada, this would alleviate all the problems with the gender pay gap, or would there still be other issues that need to be focused on?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Academic Staff Relations, Dalhousie University
Our y-value sets the salary floor, so it's an effective tool for establishing a baseline. Depending on disciplines and areas of expertise, sometimes faculty members are hired at salary rates above the y-value. The y-value gives us a metric to decide, based on someone's education level and experience, where they fall in the grid, but it's not a perfect measurement. Would it resolve all the problems? Absolutely not.
A key component of what has achieved success here at Dal is not only having that y-value measure, but also revisiting the analysis in advance of bargaining or new collective agreements to give us an opportunity to temperature-check and know whether we're meeting the mark in terms of pay equity.
I don't think there's any system you could just implement and trust that it would take care of things forever. It's something you have to keep checking back on.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
I think with any program or policy, there are always going to be loopholes or issues that never cover 100%, and that's understandable.
With your experience at Dalhousie, do you feel the federal government is providing adequate support and resources to universities to effectively address the pay equity gap?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Academic Staff Relations, Dalhousie University
It's interesting, because most universities are unionized, and our collective agreement is quite nuanced and sophisticated. There are a lot of parts and pieces to academic salaries, and I don't know that the federal government could issue blanket practices or policies that would speak to all of the constraints and specificities of the Dalhousie Faculty Association collective agreement.
I think it's probably been for the best that, as an institution, we've been able to dictate how to do the pay equity exercise ourselves.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB
I am almost done, so if you could just write in, what's the role of the federal government in this process?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Academic Staff Relations, Dalhousie University
I think it's asking each institution to do the analysis itself and then holding it accountable to that process.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lloyd Longfield
That was a nice short question and a short answer. That was a valuable answer, as well, for our report.
Now I'm going to go over to Ms. Diab for six minutes, please.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both of our witnesses for coming in. You both have very impressive bios. Ms. Neals, thank you for your work in Nova Scotia at Dalhousie, which is my alma mater. It's my home city and province. I appreciate your travelling here from Halifax to speak to us.
To the Honourable Naidoo-Harris, congratulations and thank you for coming.
It is an important study. It's important to all of us on this committee, regardless of whether we're men or women, but obviously it's a study that we pushed forward to have as females on this committee, because we recognize there is a gender gap but we wanted to confirm whether it is indeed there and whether we're doing any better as a country.
Recognizing that education and post-secondary education are very much in the provincial realm, speaking of Dalhousie and the province of Nova Scotia, are there any policies or legislation in Nova Scotia that helped gear you to what was done in 2015 and 2017, and fast-forwarding to now, in terms of these processes?
5:15 p.m.
Director, Academic Staff Relations, Dalhousie University
No, not right now.
The decision to do the pay equity review and adjustments was a result of internal discussion and a report that came through Dalhousie in 2015. There is nothing provincially to push that forward, at the moment.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
Are you aware of the dimensions initiative that was developed by NSERC? It's a handbook for post-secondary institutions to increase equity. Did that guide give you any guidance in terms of what you are doing at Dalhousie?
5:15 p.m.
Director, Academic Staff Relations, Dalhousie University
We didn't use that to guide our review, but I am aware of its existence, yes.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
Would you say these types of resources are helpful or valuable to a post-secondary institution?
5:15 p.m.
Director, Academic Staff Relations, Dalhousie University
I think it depends on the topic. As I mentioned earlier, our collective agreement has so many particular provisions that a blanket guide or policy is not necessarily going to help us address the specifics of compensation in our institution.
I think requiring institutions to be accountable in some way is helpful, but giving them freedom and flexibility so they can do it in a way that's in keeping with their collective agreements or employment contracts is probably the best way to go about this work.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
Ms. Neals, thank you.
Just before I ask our second witness, I want to say that it's due time that Dalhousie has its first female president—as of August 2023—with Dr. Kim Brooks. I was excited about that, and I think it's a good thing for Nova Scotia and the country.
Ms. Naidoo-Harris, congratulations on what you're doing right now at the University of Guelph, and also on what you did formerly, which I didn't realize. I am going to ask a question based on what you've done formerly, because you alluded to it. As a mother and grandmother right now, I see the challenges my daughters have because they're having children.
What would you say—particularly because of the pandemic, and so on—is the significant impact on women in the workplace, specifically mothers of school-age children? How has your university aimed to help with the pay gap on that, since we recognize it is a challenge?
5:15 p.m.
Associate Vice-President, Diversity & Human Rights, University of Guelph
I think the answer is twofold.
Folks who are looking at how we can come to solutions have to, first, make sure we are identifying the problem. For example, at the University of Guelph, we undertook a mental health task force to get a better sense of what was happening when it came to mental health issues on campus, in our community and, of course, in the broader society. We were all aware that individuals, specifically women and equity-deserving groups, were being hit hardest by the pandemic. That was a result of carrying more of the workload and having to deal much more with unpaid labour. There was a recognition that a lot of folks were very taxed physically and mentally by this. We undertook, recently, that mental health task force to give us a more informed look at what needed to happen next and to build some supports, which I think are very important.
The other piece, I think, is a broader question we need to look at as a society. I'll go back to the child care aspect. During that time in the pandemic, a lot of women were carrying the added work of making sure they were looking after their children at home and preparing themselves, essentially, to be able to keep the household running while still showing up for work and doing what they needed to do. That has impacted our society and the ability of women to perform in a way that shows well on paper when they're applying for roles, and so on. We saw a lot of women leaving STEM research, for example, around the time of the pandemic—and we are just coming out of that now—because there were so many more responsibilities for them to carry. It was having an impact on many individuals.
We put EDI supports in place. That's part of it.