Status of Women Committee on June 22nd, 2006

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

I'll ask Sandra to deal with the custom land allotment study.

[Sandra Ginnish]

Actually, it would be Holly.

[Holly King]

The Department of Indian Affairs does not manage or have anything to do with custom allotments. They're administered by the first nation communities.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm aware of that.

[Holly King]

As such, in regard to matrimonial property, we've had trouble getting the communities to talk to us about the custom allotments and how their matters are decided under the governing systems. That's why we felt that consultation was important on how to find solutions to custom allotments.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I don't have any more time, do I?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Twenty seconds.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'll leave it, then. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you and your staff, Minister, for appearing before us today. It's great to be brought up to speed on a topic that we have spent considerable time discussing, particularly this week.

My question is on something you've actually dealt with briefly.

As we discussed the whole issue of matrimonial real property as it relates to native women in particular, it was easy to fall into discussions of other important and related topics--housing, and the whole question of how we can expedite native self-government agreements--and even as early as this week we talked of issues relating to the rights of children vis-à-vis custody. When you get into these discussions, it's easy to get sidetracked.

Could you comment on what kinds of terms of reference or framework could be put in place to avoid getting into an expanded discussion that might in fact lengthen the process to getting to the real object of this exercise?

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Thank you very much for those comments.

I think the first and most important thing is to have a person heading up the process who will keep it focused and targeted. Frankly, in determining the way forward here, we made a conscious choice to have a process that was headed up by someone who would represent me as minister. There were other models that were looked at, but I felt very strongly that having a respected Canadian take the lead on this would give it the focus you're talking about and the sense of direction you're talking about.

I know of the work Wendy Grant-John has done. She's extremely well respected by the Assembly of First Nations and by NWAC. She is a former chief of the Musqueam First Nation and has that experience as well. She is, to my mind, essentially the best person in Canada to do this. I know that she'll keep it targeted. Certainly other issues will be discussed. I expect we will stay focused on the whole issue of empowering aboriginal women to move forward their communities and their children.

I have a very strong-willed mother, four strong-willed sisters, and three strong-willed daughters, so I'm firmly of the view that a big part of social progress here lies in empowering aboriginal women to advance the interests of themselves and their children in the education and political processes. We have more women emerging as chiefs in communities, and they're doing an extraordinary job, without exception, in those communities.

I think things like section 67 of the Human Rights Act and the matrimonial property reform create a more level playing field so that the interests of women, and thereby the interests of families, can be advanced. I predict, ladies and gentlemen, that if we take some of the steps we're talking about here today, in ten years you'll see enormous changes.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Do I have any time left, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes, you have 1.17 minutes.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you.

On another matter, I know this announcement is as recent as a couple of days ago, but at this stage, has there been any reaction from native leadership or representatives of native organizations across the country that you could comment on? What sort of response are you getting? Are there any concerns coming your way with respect to how this initiative might proceed?

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

There's actually been less media pick-up on it than I would have expected. Certainly the Assembly of First Nations has been very positive. The Congress of Aboriginal People have been positive about it. The Native Women's Association is very excited about it. At that level it's been quite positive. To be frank, I haven't heard anything negative anywhere at this stage, and I expect it'll be a positive process.

I would encourage all of the people at the table here today, as you are respected parliamentarians, to speak up about this issue in your communities and about what we as a Parliament are trying to do about this. Speak positively of the initiative.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Ms. Bourgeois.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ladies, Mr. Minister, welcome to the committee.

We've heard a great deal about you , sir, in particular about your expertise on Aboriginal rights. We're pleased that you could join us.

I'd like to speak to you first about Ms. Wendy Grant-John. Could you clarify her mandate? Is she expected to achieve some results? If so, what are they? What do you expect of her by the end of her mandate?

You pointed out in your opening statement that the Government of Canada has already done a lot of work examining the question of rights for Aboriginal women. Many reports have been produced, considerable research has been done, and countless hearings have been held. Don't you think that there have already been too many consultations, if we include Ms. Grant-John's consultation process, given that women continue to wait for some results?

You are a man of considerable experience. Do you know if the rights issue was discussed at all in the Erasmus-Dussault report?

If the rights of Aboriginal people were recognized, as Aboriginals are now asking the UN to do, could we not, in your opinion, come to some sort of arrangement with First Nations so that Canada would no longer have to pass laws and keep Aboriginal peoples under their control?

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Thank you for your questions and comments.

I've also heard many goods things about you.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Surely from the Bloc Québécois.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

However, I don't believe it was during Question Period.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

You're a little like Mr. Loubier who worked on the Aboriginal peoples file. He admires you a great deal for your diligent work.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

I'll respond in English.

The mandate of Wendy Grant-John is very specific. We've asked her to be responsible for the consultation process and to bring back a specific recommendation on a legislative solution. She's been asked to come back to me in a very specific way, initially in December. If it takes a little longer in terms of consultation, we'll extend the period, but we've asked her to essentially ensure that we have a legislative recommendation from her before us in the early winter, late winter, early spring of 2007. So that's her mandate.

To address your question of why further consultation, there are really two reasons. As I mentioned earlier, the Supreme Court of Canada in the Haida and Taku cases in 2004 set forth a principle that if legislation is going to be introduced that affects aboriginal rights, there is a constitutional obligation to have consultation. Those cases did not relate to matrimonial real property obviously; they related actually to resource development situations.

So one can argue the legal niceties of how far that duty to consult goes, but at the end of the day, I think most legal scholars agree that there is a duty of some description to proceed with consultation, and frankly, nothing could impact more directly on aboriginal rights than the difficult questions of matrimonial real property and the division of assets between spouses. So I think it's only proper that we proceed with recognition of the Supreme Court of Canada.

Secondly, though, consultation is important to try to work towards building a consensus. As I said, I don't think unanimity is possible, but I think going through community-level consultation will help build support for this initiative. It will ensure that there's buy-in for it--maybe not everywhere, but I think it will help show people that this is not something to be feared. It is something that will ensure that the rights of aboriginal women are consistent with the rights of other Canadian women. I think there will be some positive benefits from that.

In terms of your other question about proceeding with agreement, it is fair to say that there is no agreement in this country at this point on this issue. There have been lengthy reports from both the Senate and the House of Commons standing committees. There is no unanimity on this subject. There are people who do not agree that aboriginal women on reserves should have property rights that are commensurate with those of non-aboriginal women off reserve, and I suspect some of those people will disagree when this matter arrives at the House of Commons.

So I don't think agreement is achievable. I think we're talking about consultation, broadly based, community-based, followed by the House of Commons accepting its responsibility to act in the interests of equality and protecting women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Sorry, Madame Bourgeois, we have run out of time, and there is another committee, of course, waiting for our committee room. If you have some further questions, you could put them in writing to Minister Prentice, and I expect he would be quite happy to comment.

Minister Prentice, thank you so very much for your earnest commitment to an issue that we all want to see resolved. I wish you well with it. Thank you very much for coming

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.