Evidence of meeting #11 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aboriginal.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Cool  Committee Researcher
Sandra Ginnish  Director General, Treaties, Research, International and Gender Equality Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Holly King  Acting Director, Women's Issues and Gender Equality Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Christine Aubin  Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Justice

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

You can suggest those; that would be fine.

To summarize, we will be studying two main topics, human trafficking and the economic security of women, as we move forward into the fall. We will be in touch over the summer.

I would just like to remind the committee that we have accomplished a fair number of things in this short period of time. We've submitted a report on the division of matrimonial real property on reserves and a report on the economic security of senior women and violence against women. We have re-tabled the recommendations on the funding for women's organizations, the report on gender-based analysis, the report on pay equity, and the report on parental benefits. And we tabled our own report on matrimonial real property rights on June 21.

So we are moving fairly quickly along, even though a lot of us are impatient to do more.

Now I'm very pleased to welcome Minister Prentice and his staff. Thank you so very much for finding time to appear before our committee and for the action you have already taken on the report the committee just completed and tabled yesterday.

On behalf of the committee, thank you very much for that. We welcome you as we all work forward on some issues that are extremely important to all Canadians.

Welcome, Minister Prentice.

10:05 a.m.

Calgary Centre-North Alberta

Conservative

Jim Prentice ConservativeMinister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, Madam Chair, colleagues, and fellow parliamentarians.

Let me just begin by saying that the steps we announced this week in respect of moving forward on matrimonial property are steps that I regard as extremely important. This is an initiative that I regard as very important. In the time that I've been in Parliament, prior to the time, even, that we were in government, I have been moved by the people I've met concerning this issue, many who would describe themselves as the poorest of the poor in our society and who I think deserve our attention as parliamentarians in dealing with this issue.

It's an issue that cuts across party lines. I've had discussions with all of the critics from each party in the House of Commons, and I think there's a high degree of consensus surrounding this issue and a great deal of goodwill. I certainly hope that carries through in the process. I'm pretty confident in saying that every single person who's at this table today probably shares my desire to see us move forward on this issue, move forward expeditiously, do it in a way that we'll have broad support in the country and that the rights of aboriginal women will be brought in line with other Canadian women. I just make those comments as I begin.

I would like to thank the standing committee formally for the opportunity to be here, and to highlight how we're going to go forward and what we're doing to help resolve this issue of matrimonial real property as it affects aboriginal women and children and families on reserve.

The government is deeply concerned about all forms of discrimination and violence against Aboriginal women. We are committed to providing support where it is needed and we are determined to resolve, once and for all, the longstanding issue of matrimonial real property on reserves.

For me, personally, this is an extremely important issue. During my years in politics I have spent a great deal of time talking to the members of the Native Women's Association and their voices have moved me. I want to ensure that Aboriginal women are protected and that there are matrimonial property rights for Aboriginal women living on reserves.

Evidence shows that the issue of matrimonial real property affects a disproportionate number of first nations women and children, especially those experiencing family violence. When a marriage or a common law relationship breaks down, many women who live on reserve do not hold a certificate of possession, or do not have ownership, by custom, of the family home, and they are forced to leave. When there's no alternative to on-reserve housing, these women and children are forced to leave their communities.

Again, I think all of us around the table are fully aware of how many women are living in urban Canada very often in circumstances of poverty. They have essentially been driven there by the circumstances of a lack of protection for their matrimonial home. Matrimonial real property on reserves is therefore obviously a pressing equality issue, and it's a human rights issue that we are all committed to resolving. Human rights have to be protected, regardless of where people live in Canada.

The Indian Act does not include provisions for the division of matrimonial real property in the event of a marital breakdown, and provincial law is also limited on reserve with regard to these issues. I think everyone is aware that this extends back, as I recall, to 1986 and the Derrickson case, a decision by the Supreme Court of Canada that essentially said that provincial matrimonial property laws do not apply on reserve.

Moreover, self-government agreements do provide an opportunity to address the legislative gap, but of course we do not have self-government agreements in place in most first nations. There are 617 first nations across Canada. At this point, there are, as I recall, only 17 that have self-government agreements in place.

So obviously that is not a fulsome protection of matrimonial property rights. There are essentially close to 600 first nations with no protection.

Self-government agreements will specify that first nations will develop rules and procedures to address matrimonial real property. Westbank is a good example of that, specifically with respect to the use, occupation, and possession of reserve land and the division of interests in the case of marital breakdown.

And while the Indian Act currently is silent with respect to the division of the matrimonial home upon marriage breakdown, the First Nations Land Management Initiative enables participating First Nations to enact laws with respect to matrimonial real property. But more needs to be done.

As committee members are aware, on June 20 I announced a series of measures that we will be proceeding with to help improve the lives of aboriginal women, and particularly aboriginal women and children, by ensuring that their fundamental rights are respected. These are measures that will tackle some of the devastating obstacles, including the issue of matrimonial real property, that for far too long have hampered the lives of aboriginal women and their children and the health of their communities.

Our first measure directly addresses the issue of matrimonial real property and its potential negative impacts on women, children, and families. Under this measure, consultations on this issue involving Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, the Native Women's Association of Canada, the Assembly of First Nations, and other organizations will begin this fall. The objectives will be to bring forward options, including specific legislative options that can be introduced into the House of Commons.

I'm very pleased to confirm that Ms. Wendy Grant-John has agreed to assist in the consultation process as my ministerial representative. She will be essentially responsible for the consultation process as my personal designate, responsible to shepherd the consultations along, responsible to bring back to me as the minister a legislative solution that I can bring to you as parliamentarians to decide upon in the House of Commons.

Ms. Grant-John will work with the Native Women's Association of Canada and the Assembly of First Nations in developing first a plan of consultation that will help facilitate the process to ensure that all interested parties are heard. She will then present specific recommendations for action, including legislative solutions.

Ms. Grant-John is very knowledgeable about this issue and is well-known and respected by Aboriginal organizations and communities. A former Chief of the Musqueam First Nation, she is a National Aboriginal Achievement Award recipient who has devoted her 30-year career to strengthening First Nations communities, cultures and economies.

As you know, the Government of Canada has already done a lot of work examining the issue, including research reports by my department and information sessions across the country with First Nations communities and Aboriginal organizations.

In addition to the work of your committee, the Senate Standing Committee on Human Rights held hearings on matrimonial real property and provided us with the valuable and insightful report that has really been of great assistance to my department and to all of us as parliamentarians. I think we're all also aware of the work of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development in the last Parliament that increased our store of knowledge and clarified perspectives on this issue.

I think it's worth pointing out that the approach we are following is essentially the approach that was recommended in the last Parliament by the standing committee, in terms of proceeding with consultations.The result is that consultations will therefore build on a solid foundation of research, hearings, and reports, but, most importantly, we know the time has arrived for concrete action and for real change.

As the title of the standing Senate committee report encapsulates it, “Walking Arm-in-Arm” is our way forward. Working together with the aboriginal organizations, with NWAC and the AFN and the communities, we will succeed in bringing down the barriers that continue to impede aboriginal women and children in this country from exercising their full rights as Canadian citizens.

The second measure that I announced on Tuesday will focus on strengthening programming to prevent family violence through a broad range of services for aboriginal women, children, and families. To this end, my department is currently working with other federal departments, aboriginal organizations in the provinces and territories, as well as experts in the field of family violence, including experts who administer and operate shelters. By early fall, I plan to be back to articulate options for improved programming that will be more effective in reducing family violence.

I will be proud to champion all these measures which will help Aboriginal women and their children to feel safe and secure in their own homes and communities, and to enjoy their fundamental rights as Canadian citizens. That is very important.

Thank you once again, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity to address this important issue. As we work forward, I very much look forward to having the support of this committee and all of the people at the table. As I said in my opening remarks, I have spoken to enough of you to know that you share my desire that this Parliament act on this issue and that this Parliament translate the good work that's been previously done across party lines, in the Senate and in the House of Commons, into specific action that is going to protect aboriginal women.

Thank you.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Minister Prentice. I appreciate that. Would you like to introduce your staff who are with you?

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Suppose I let them tell you a bit about themselves and what they do. I'm very proud of them; they do extraordinary work.

June 22nd, 2006 / 10:15 a.m.

Sandra Ginnish Director General, Treaties, Research, International and Gender Equality Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you, Minister.

My name is Sandra Ginnish, I'm the director general of treaties, research, and international and gender equality. I've been in the department for over 20 years.

10:15 a.m.

Holly King Acting Director, Women's Issues and Gender Equality Directorate, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Hi. My name is Holly King. I'm the acting director of women's issues and gender equality. Sandra is my director general.

10:15 a.m.

Christine Aubin Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Justice

Good day. My name is Christine Aubin.

I'm with the Department of Justice, more specifically DIAND legal services, and I'm adviser to Sandra and Holly's team.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Welcome. Thank you very much.

We very much appreciate your comments, Minister Prentice. This is certainly an issue that all of this committee cares passionately about, and I'm sure we'll all look very carefully at where we're going and at the opportunity for us to work forward.

I'd like to suggest to the committee that since we have 40 minutes, in order to give everyone an opportunity, rather than taking seven minutes, we reduce it to five. I will keep a very close watch on the clock. The five minutes includes the question and the answer, in order to give everybody an opportunity.

Ms. Minna.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for appearing before us. Thank you for the announcement as well. That's what we call quick action.

NWAC appeared before us recently, before we sent you the information. One of the things they mentioned was the importance of having proper financing for them to be able to do their work. In the past that has generally been a major problem.

Can you tell us if a budget has been set aside to facilitate the participation of NWAC and the AFN in developing the consultations, the recommendations, and the time? If so, will both organizations be able to get equal funding? I understand that has been an issue in the past.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

I have spent a lot of time discussing this issue with Beverly Jacobs and people who preceded her, such as Marilyn Buffalo, whom I have enormous respect for. I have spent a lot of time working through this proposal with them, and they are supportive of it.

You open up a question that relates to this proposal, but it goes beyond that and relates to the question of the parity of funding on this issue and ensuring that the Native Women's Association has adequate funding generally to advocate on behalf of women's issues in this country. That is important to me, and it is something I'm addressing.

In the context of this initiative, $9 million has been budgeted and set aside. There will be equality of funding between the Native Women's Association and the AFN, with each receiving $2.7 million. That also involves regional components of each organization. So for NWAC proper and AFN proper it's $1 million apiece, but through the subsidiaries there's other funding.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

So there will be $1 million for both AFN and NWAC.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

It's $2.7 million each for NWAC and AFN and $1 million for other organizations.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

When you say NWAC and the subsidiaries, do you mean that the various groups across the country, the members of NWAC, will get a certain amount, or will NWAC get to decide how that money is distributed?

10:20 a.m.

Director General, Treaties, Research, International and Gender Equality Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Sandra Ginnish

I can speak to that. Each organization, AFN and NWAC, will receive a total of $2.7 million. That will include funding for planning, consultation, and a consensus-building phase. Another $1 million has been set aside for other organizations not represented by NWAC or AFN, like the Indigenous Bar Association.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

That's good. I just wanted to understand it clearly.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

It will be for Inuit organizations as well.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

When NWAC were here they emphasized that carrying out consultations exclusively in first nations communities would not be sufficient, as some women might not feel free to discuss issues in their communities. In addition, she noted there was a need for recognition that the AFN represents the Indian Act chiefs and NWAC represents women.

What steps will be taken to ensure that first nations women feel safe and comfortable participating in this whole process and are quite free to speak?

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

It's an important issue and it has been discussed with Wendy Grant-John. She's alert to the issue, and we've had meetings with NWAC about it. Wendy Grant-John will have flexibility in designing the consultation process to make sure it's done in a way that women feel safe coming out to speak, whether it's within their communities or outside the communities. Shelters, for example, can be used as venues.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

She will design the consultation in partnership with NWAC--the actual structure.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Absolutely.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Ms. Mourani.

10:20 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We've met with QNW and AFN representatives. What emerged from our meetings is that these organizations view the Indian Act as colonialist and would like to administer their own affairs, regardless of the issue involved.

How do you plan to proceed to respect this desire for autonomy, or to be treated as a nation, and ensure that in the case of women and children, customary law can be combined with equality. As Ms. Jacobs mentioned, Aboriginal customary law can be discriminatory at times.

I'd also like to know if women will be involved in the process of developing new legislative measures. I'm thinking here about the QNW, the AFN and possibly other stakeholders. Among other things, will these measures take into account common law spouses and persons with a different legal status, in so far as band membership is concerned. Will the interests of children have priority?

Finally, can you tell me how much the government plans to invest, or has already invested, in social housing and in preventing violence?

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

Thank you.

While you've asked a number of questions, I don't have a great deal of time. I'll answer them in English.

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

That's fine.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Jim Prentice Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB

I can speak French when discussing political matters, but not when it comes to discussing legal questions.

The questions you've asked are very important. The Indian Act has been described as a piece of colonial legislation. That's not language I use in particular, but I've been very critical in saying that the Indian Act is a compilation of pre-Confederation statutes. It's not acceptable for 500,000 to 600,000 people in this country to have their lives governed by a legislative base that was developed 150 years ago. We have to move beyond that collectively as parliamentarians.

I think there's agreement on that. The issue is really to try to achieve a consensus on how to go forward, and I hope we can all make some progress on that. I'm a very strong believer in self-government, and I've been committed to the self-government progress. But that can only go so far so quickly. As I mentioned in my introductory comments, we have really close to 600 first nations in Canada that are not at this point operating under a self-government regime; they are still under the Indian Act, which is not working very satisfactorily.

The process we are following here will help us arrive at legislative solutions that will break away from the discrimination you've spoken about. I don't wish to pre-judge what those solutions are. I know that previously, in both the Senate work and the House of Commons work, suggested drafts were put forward. A private member's bill has been tabled in the House. There have been previous private members' bills, all of which propose language. One of the common themes is the need for some sort of default code or default legislation that would apply until a first nation put a self-government regime in place.

So it's that interim period that is most difficult. If all first nations end up where Westbank is, for example, where matrimonial property laws are in place through a self-government agreement, that would be wonderful. Of real concern is the interim period, which could be lengthy for many first nations. During that period we need to ensure that there are matrimonial property rights that are consistent with the provincial rights that neighbouring women enjoy. So generally speaking, that's the target.