Status of Women Committee on Oct. 26th, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. Mathyssen is next.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you for your presentation.

I have a few questions. First, I was quite interested in what IOM said about the consequences of deregulation of the labour market and the obligation of the banks in terms of addressing what's going on in developing countries. Could you talk about specific things that really privileged countries like Canada should be doing in regard to addressing this?

[Armand Pereira]

What I am saying is the following. I'd like to see banks putting conditionality on lending, rather than having beautiful cosmetic campaigns about how to call in to help the girls and so on. That is something churches or NGOs can do.

There is a lot of investment in the tourist business--in hotels, in tourism, in all sorts of things--that can be or cannot be promoting or condoning the sex trade. In some cases it may promote illegal practices involving trafficking of persons, and so on.

What parliamentarians can do, for example, is to press their banks, the international community, and international banks to promote conditionality on, for example, fundamental human rights that include all these questions we're talking about.

For that we need clarity about what is really a crime--what practices are criminal from an international standpoint and what are not, whether we're talking about children or not, whether we're talking about forced labour trafficking or not, or whether we're talking about whether it's consented to or not.

I think when we're talking about labour markets, we're also talking about having a minimum floor on trade and globalization. At a minimum floor, we have universally accepted standards--core labour standards--that have been defined. It's in the ILO Declaration on Fundamental Principles and Rights at Work, so parliamentarians can be promoting that as part of trade agreements. Some of the trade agreements have made passing references to these things, but they are not always being pushed forward in all bilateral agreements either, depending on the country, so you could have a role there too, and on and on.

The ILO has two conventions that deal with forced labour, and they have been highly ratified by its member states. One has been ratified by 170 member states and the other one by 166.

A number of changes in national legislation have to occur. Our experience is also telling us that we have a tendency these days to have a lot of social assistance, helping the victim kinds of initiatives. In many of our projects in the ILO we find that things can work for a while, but then they don't work anymore because the police at the local level get interested and then all of a sudden they don't have support from above, or, as someone has said, those who demand the sex services from the girls go on and nothing happens; there is pure impunity, and they travel back home. Sometimes they're caught by the police but have to be released. So there is a need for international and national integrated work.

My key piece of advice on all this is that whatever a particular country is thinking of doing, they should do it together with the international and the national communities--different actors--because we all have different kinds of advantages in this process.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

So we need to have a discussion about these international trade agreements and what they mean for those who are exploited.

I was quite interested in your brief. You talked about the consequences of human trafficking as being serious for communities. We have focused a great deal on the horrendous experiences of those exploited, but I wonder whether you could talk about the communities from which they're wrested and could give us a sense of what happens in those communities.

[Vivita Rozenbergs]

Just to be clear, do you mean from communities where the victims are rescued?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

No, from where they're taken, wrested.

[Vivita Rozenbergs]

Oh, taken. Well, if the victims have come from overseas, frequently there are conditions of poverty, but I think we can't ignore the fact that in the situation of women, perhaps women are also escaping gender discrimination or violence in the family. Those are so-called push factors. It's important to recognize the whole of feminization of migration: that women are travelling—moving or migrating—primarily for work purposes; they are sole bread winners for their families. There is also a certain level of acceptance that women are suitable for work in informal sectors that are not regulated and are poorly paid. That alone has put women in a particularly vulnerable situation when, upon arrival, wherever it might be, they go into markets that are unregulated.

For example, in the case of domestic service, they are isolated in individual homes. While the primary purpose for their migration for work was to provide domestic service in individuals' homes, it leaves them vulnerable too—and isolated—to violence that could take place in such environments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Neville and Mr. Dhaliwal are going to share their time.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

I'm going to put a question out there. I know my colleague has a question as well.

Two of you I think made some reference to the use of the Internet in the whole matter of trafficking of persons, nationally and internationally. What I'm interested in is what recommendations you would make to this committee for legislation we could propose that would regulate or provide tools to the officials—to police, nationally and internationally—to curtail human trafficking.

It's not an easy answer, and if you don't want to answer today and want to send us a submission on it...but I think it's important that this committee be able to put forward some recommendations in that area.

But my colleague has a question as well.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

No, you can go ahead and take as much time as you want.

[Armand Pereira]

I'll answer with one example. Microsoft International, for example, has developed some innovative initiatives to crack down on cyber-café-related sexual exploitation, trying to identify those who demand services, usually from youngsters. I can tell you that the people who develop these innovative activities would like very much to get letters from parliamentarians to ask them questions on exactly what they're doing and any questions about things they could do more, if they had support at the top of their corporation and from their board of directors.

The people who are doing these things would like to be able to continue, but they have pressure from their boards of directors, with people saying, “Why is Microsoft International getting into this business and subjecting itself to pressures from the government? It's not our business.” Parliamentarians can help corporations in this kind of thing, in a positive sense, in giving support to them to do this kind of thing, which is something we in the ILO cannot do, because if we do it, they may be involved in other kinds of things with workers, and it might seem that we in the ILO were condoning these companies. This is just given as an example.

There are all kinds of things that are going on, done by companies or corporations and also by international institutions, that could be helped out by people like yourselves.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And thank you, panel, for coming here and giving presentations, because this is affecting many innocent individuals, particularly women.

There was a case in my riding recently. There were three women who came to this wonderful country to have a good life as nannies. They were engaged in an illegal labour situation. The immigration department sent them back immediately. I'd like to know whether you would consider that a case of human trafficking as well, in this particular situation.

[Vivita Rozenbergs]

As a point of clarification, because I'm not familiar with this case, you were saying the nannies were here legally. Were they coerced?

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

They were here legally, but they were working in a labour situation that wasn't legal, because they couldn't go out of the house to work. Would you consider a case like that to be human trafficking or not? The women were exploited because they came here.... They can work for two years. After the second year, when they go to the third year, they can get the immigration....

[Vivita Rozenbergs]

From the information you are sharing with me, I wouldn't interpret that as a trafficking case.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Okay.

To carry on, Ms. Smith was saying raising the age of consent and bringing in criminal legislation is very tough. If I hear correctly, you don't agree that is the only perspective, that there should be social programs in place as well. Do you agree with that?

[Vivita Rozenbergs]

Yes, I would agree with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, Mr. Dhaliwal, your time is about up.

Perhaps you could quickly respond to Mr. Dhaliwal, and then Mr. Bellefeuille.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

What should this committee be doing in particular to help this situation?

[Vivita Rozenbergs]

I think the other panellists here were very specific in what Canada could do to address the problem.

[Jean Bellefeuille]

Yes.

Ultimately, we could say that a person who is virtually treated like a slave at the place where she goes to work may be a victim of trafficking, to the extent that she has been misled from the outset. That person comes here to work legally and properly in a manner respectful of her human rights, then that's not what happens. Ultimately, she's been misdirected, in a way, and to that extent, it can be said that she's been mistreated from the outset. She's therefore a victim of trafficking in persons.

Trafficking in persons isn't just a matter of crossing the border legally or illegally; it's a matter of being deceived. This person has been deceived, in a certain way. It may be considered that she is a victim of human trafficking and that she may have recourse to various measures that are established to assist her.

Normally, we shouldn't simply send her back because she hasn't agreed to spend the anticipated two years in her employer's service, even if she had committed to that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Grewal.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you all for your time and your presentations.

Mr. Bellefeuille, your presentation was very insightful. Could you please give a copy to the committee so that all of us could have it?

In 2005, I put a motion in the House to raise the age of consent from fourteen to sixteen. It was debated and voted upon. I think people are taking advantage of our weak laws.

My question is, what proportion of trafficking involves minors, and what methods are used to attract these young people?

[Jean Bellefeuille]

I cannot answer that.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What proportion, do you know, of trafficking...?