Evidence of meeting #49 for Status of Women in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commissioner.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sharon Woodburn  Director General, Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Michael O'Rielly  Director, Legislative Reform Initiative, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Catherine Ebbs  Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
David Paradiso  Executive Director and Senior Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

9:20 a.m.

Director General, Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Sharon Woodburn

I have read the report. I do know our policy centre is working closely with “E” Division to follow what they have been doing since the report. There has been a lot of good work started, possibly because of this report, but maybe even earlier than that, because of the negative publicity and things brought to light. I know the commanding officer of B.C. took that very seriously, took it to heart, and he is definitely working on improving things there with some actions.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

That is in one division and one area. Clearly, the comments are that the old boys' club is alive and well. Again, it's not from 2011. This is a report just put out in April 2012 by someone who is lauded as being a very progressive deputy commissioner, who clearly really cares about this issue and who has taken this kind of initiative to interview over 400 people who have come forward with these complaints. I would suggest that's just the tip of the iceberg. Many people will have experienced it but have decided not to put their careers in jeopardy by going forward on it.

Exactly what would they need to do to change that, other than to get up to 50% in numbers and maybe get better control, which would give women the attitude that they can break out of this old boys' club or get rid of the old boys' club? Maybe we can make it a women's club. Maybe it's time for a whole new attitude. How do we get there? I am not hearing about anything being done, whether through Bill C-42 or otherwise, that gives me any kind of confidence. There are lots of great words but little really serious action.

9:20 a.m.

Director General, Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Sharon Woodburn

As I said, I have read the report, and like you, I was disheartened by some of those comments. It's not pleasant to imagine somebody feeling that way in their workplace.

I don't know the sum of the comments and how many positive ones didn't make the report either, but I have to say that I agree not one thing will tackle this issue. The perspective of the RCMP is that there's a more holistic approach to this. When I say we're updating our policy, that's just one portion of it. That goes along with leadership demonstrated by the commissioner and by every senior manager. That goes along with other training: the new training and reinforcing the old training. That goes along with the critical mass of women, and these are just my words.

You alluded to an old girls' club. I don't know your exact wording, but a critical mass will get us there. I don't know what that number is exactly, but I do know that would be a room where everybody feels comfortable in the meeting, and that the power and balance is not necessarily with the man who is the most senior at the table, because in the future I don't think that will be. Based on everything we're doing, I think we will see a more balanced workplace and therefore a more respectful one.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Do you have confidence in the processes we're talking about?

9:25 a.m.

Director General, Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Sharon Woodburn

Yes, I have confidence. I understand the processes. I've worked with them. Perhaps what we need to do is explain them better so that other people have confidence in them as well.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin

Thank you, Ms. Woodburn.

We will now begin our second round of questions.

Ms. Bateman, you have five minutes.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Joyce Bateman Conservative Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much to both of you for being here. I appreciate not only that you're here, but that you are both empowering your daughters to make their own decisions. Certainly I would be in exactly the same position, and it would be at my peril that I would think any other way. But you're dealing with somebody's daughters, and that's very important. I really want to understand better exactly what you're doing.

Bill C-42 has some changes. You've both made references to C-42, to the fact that Treasury Board currently governs all employees of the federal public service, and yet there is a juxtaposition of that responsibility with part IV of the RCMP Act. Could you take a few minutes to enlighten me and the committee on exactly how that fits, and how it's going to work?

9:25 a.m.

Director, Legislative Reform Initiative, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Supt Michael O'Rielly

Probably the easiest way to describe it—and I'll give a rough sketch—is that if an incident occurs and it is not addressed immediately, it is allowed to fester, the person who is the target of the inappropriate behaviour looks around for an opportunity to bring this to someone to have something done about it.

Under the Treasury Board policy, the expectation is that you'll be able to enter into an early resolution process. Efforts will be made to try to bring the parties together, if appropriate. There are different dispute resolution processes to address balances, power balances and issues like that. But the expectation is that you will be able to conduct an entire process focused on the harassing behaviour and come to a determination of whether harassment has occurred, and determine what steps need to be taken to rebuild the workplace relations to address the relationship between the parties, if it's recoverable at all.

There's a lot of good work that can be done along the harassment continuum within the Treasury Board policy, including at the end of it, if it is found that...where a manager within the core public administration is in a position to say, “I see what has happened here and I will now issue discipline, if I feel it's appropriate.”

In the RCMP world we can only go so far with that. We can attempt to engage in early resolution if it's a harassment complaint. However, as soon as it appears—and that's the test under the act, “appears”—to the person in command or in the chain of command of the respondent in a complaint that there is a violation of the code of conduct, then they initiate an investigation. They could rely on the harassment investigation that was done under the Treasury Board policy, but the challenge there is that the statements may not have been taken in such a way to allow it to feed into an adversarial process, a very court-like process. That is ultimately one of the outcomes of our conduct system, our discipline system. Once it's into the discipline world, it's no longer dealing with relationships. It's no longer trying to address the issues that are in the workplace. It's no longer focused on how we can assist the complainant, how we can deal with the inappropriate behaviour of the respondent. It becomes very much a matter of what evidence I need to gather in order to prove there was a violation or a contravention of the code of conduct.

As soon as we get into that, again, it's very court-based. There are certain rights that a member who is subject to the discipline system can access. There are certain limitations on what can be done within the code of conduct process. You can't engage in early resolution, for example, once that's engaged.

The other piece is that under the Treasury Board policy there is a requirement to provide the complainant with access to a draft report in order to make sure that in their eyes everything has been done that needs to be done. But if it's done under the code of conduct, we don't have that right, because the process is designed, as I said, to prove or disprove a contravention of the code of conduct.

Therefore, these two processes do not line up and come out at the same place. The harassment process starts, but at some point it stops, and then part IV picks it up and runs with it. As soon as that is done, you're not looking at the same issue any more. You're not looking at harassment; you're looking at the code of conduct.

The other challenge is that the outcomes are very different. The ability of the complainant to play a role in influencing that outcome is minimized, outside of being a witness. They are two very different processes with two very different intentions.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin

Unfortunately, I have to cut you off.

9:30 a.m.

Director, Legislative Reform Initiative, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

9:30 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin

I apologize. That was very interesting. Thank you.

It is now over to Ms. Day.

You have five minutes.

November 20th, 2012 / 9:30 a.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today.

I have two daughters, and I'm not so sure I would encourage them to join the RCMP or a public force like the army where the male-female power balance is off and equitable representation in all ranks is lacking. But I am certain that things will improve going forward.

My colleague Ms. Ashton asked you if members leaving the force were surveyed to learn more about their reasons for leaving.

First, are you able to say whether those surveys include questions on sexual harassment specifically? Second, does the survey include a clear description of the behaviour?

9:30 a.m.

Director General, Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Sharon Woodburn

It's not a survey per se; it's an interview when people are leaving. We call it an exit interview. It's open-ended. There are no set questions. Therefore, there are none about sexual harassment per se. However, when exit interviews are done, it would be open-ended, and any information could come forward. If that were relevant, I assume there would be questions asked. If sexual harassment came forward as an issue for the person leaving, then there would be follow-up questions in that regard.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

So the exit interview doesn't have specific questions on sexual harassment. Nor does it include a clear description of the behaviour.

9:30 a.m.

Director General, Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Sharon Woodburn

No, it's because the interview is more open-ended; it's a free-flowing interview, so it wouldn't be a prescribed set of questions. I'm confident that if somebody raised the issue of sexual harassment, they would not just say thank you and move on. It would be a precursor to asking more questions about that and to digging in deeper to find out what went on.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

The preventive measures you have planned target a number of objectives: to focus on a respectful workplace, to improve training practices, to establish procedures to prevent harassment, and so forth.

Will one of your objectives be to gather better information on people who leave the force, to see if the facts line up? Sometimes you're too afraid to say anything when you're on the job, but when you leave the organization, you're able to speak up and say you experienced sexual harassment when you were hired or while you were working.

Will you include questions of that nature in the exit interview?

9:35 a.m.

Director General, Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Sharon Woodburn

I think it's a very valid point that people will be open when they're leaving and that we might get some of our best information from that. We're not planning to add a question about that. I think we would more likely be focusing on having those interviews done as opposed to prescribing them.

I'm just starting now to assign someone to look at reasons why people are leaving the recruiting process, for instance. I know that at Depot they definitely do 100% interviews on why people leave Depot.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

According to your document, your approach is also based on prevention. But will you implement more serious corrective measures, along the lines of a zero tolerance policy or a three strikes and you're out system? When sexual harassment occurs, will the perpetrator be forced to stop under your system?

9:35 a.m.

Director General, Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Sharon Woodburn

I don't think we're going to three strikes or any specific set of circumstances like that. It is zero tolerance. It will be zero tolerance. That is our commitment to have zero tolerance.

The discipline itself as it's set out right now would go to an adjudication board, in which case the sanction would take place, and that's where you would see what you're referring to, I think, as the three strikes and you're out, or the end result, I guess. That's where you would see that set of discipline for it.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Marie-Claude Morin

Unfortunately, I must cut you off. I apologize, but Ms. Day's time is up.

We have two or three minutes left before our time with this panel of witnesses is over. Ms. Ambler, you may have the remaining time.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And thank you very much to both of you for being here today and for your presentation on this very important issue.

I think the whole reason we're here is because we're all very concerned about what's going on and we want to find out more from you.

You mentioned statistics in your presentation, specifically that the average number of complaints was at 150 a year, and of that, about 3% were identified as sexual harassment, so that equals about three or four. Are there other types of more recent statistics that you keep specifically on the new policies and programs ?

9:35 a.m.

Director General, Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Sharon Woodburn

We have just in the last year gone to the central management oversight of harassment. Part of that was to take all of the harassment cases and input them into the electronic system. Unfortunately, that was just tombstone data, so I don't think our statistics are so helpful for what you're looking for.

We have started since January 1 to enter more of the output of those complaints.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Thank you.

I have a quick question regarding a point that was made earlier on the use of the word “incident” versus “sexual harassment” specifically as terminology in Bill C-42. Will that terminology in any way hinder you in being able to deal with sexual harassment cases?

9:35 a.m.

Director General, Workforce Programs and Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt Sharon Woodburn

Not at all.

But I'll turn that over to my colleague.

9:35 a.m.

Director, Legislative Reform Initiative, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Supt Michael O'Rielly

Actually, the reference to harassment is under what would become the new human resource management authorities for the commissioner. It spells out that the commissioner may establish a process for the investigation and resolution of, as it says, harassment “disputes”.