Status of Women Committee on April 18th, 2013

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

All right.

Witnesses, please bear with us. The member has introduced a motion. According to procedure, we need to deal with this right away unless there is a motion to adjourn the debate to a later date.

Ms. Truppe.

[Susan Truppe, Conservative, London North Centre, ON]

I would like to move that we go in camera for discussing committee business. These guys will have to wait outside, unfortunately, unless we're waiting until Tuesday.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

There's been a motion that we move in camera. That is not debatable, so I would ask our witnesses if they wouldn't mind waiting....

Well, first, we'll vote on the motion to move in camera.

(Motion agreed to)

The motion has passed, so our witnesses and everyone else will exit the room.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

[Public proceedings resume]

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'll call the meeting back to order. My apologies to the witnesses. Committee business takes priority, and sometimes it has to be done the way it has to be done. We did try to keep it brief.

Ms. Day and Ms. Ashton, you have four and a half minutes left of your time.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you very much to our witnesses.

We've heard that as a result of cutbacks the alternative dispute resolution centres and services are being reduced across the country. I have a background in conflict resolution. The loss of the kind of services for any member to come forward with any sort of harassment allegation is critical, let alone sexual harassment.

Do you believe that the reduction in alternative dispute resolution centres across the country will affect the number of cases of sexual misconduct that would come to your office? Do you see any other complications that this could cause for individuals in the forces who experience sexual harassment or sexual misconduct?

[LCol J.A. Legere]

Thank you for the question.

I'm here speaking only on behalf of the military police group. This really isn't within my area of expertise in terms of the alternative dispute resolution areas.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Given that point, do complaints from the alternative dispute resolutions that aren't resolved come to you? Is there a link or has there been a link between you and these centres?

[LCol J.A. Legere]

Not to my knowledge. If there is any belief or doubt as to whether or not the offence goes into the criminal realm, that it's either an offence under the code of service discipline or the Criminal Code, it will come to the military police, and we will investigate it.

As to the rates of sexual harassment, I'm not aware of any concerns at our level at this time.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

You mentioned there is no link to your knowledge. Would there be any way of reviewing that and letting us know, even if there is an indirect one or something of the sort? We've been told that people come forward to ADR to raise sexual harassment. Often there's been positive resolution. Obviously, the ones that are resolved aren't criminal in nature, but I'm wondering if perhaps if members of the forces aren't aware if it is criminal in nature whether ADR would forward it to you, to the military police.

[LCol J.A. Legere]

My expectation would be that anyone receiving a complaint where there's even a shadow of a doubt that it's criminal in nature or a code of service discipline offence, the commanding officer of that unit has an obligation to get legal counsel and report the issue to the military police. Again, I'm not aware of any linkages between the alternative dispute resolution centres and the military police. I can certainly find that out and get back to you.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Yes, we'd really appreciate that feedback. Thank you very much.

Could you clearly define how the military distinguishes between sexual harassment and other forms of sexual misconduct?

[LCol J.A. Legere]

Thank you for that question.

That's a very important point because clearly when it's sexual harassment, as I mentioned before, it's handled in the administrative realm. The incident may constitute an offence under the code of service discipline or the Criminal Code. Certain elements of the offence need to be looked at and need to be proven in a court of law. Where there's any doubt, the commanding officer has an obligation to consult with his lawyers and with the military police to determine whether that behaviour constitutes a crime. All commanding officers are well aware of that.

Would you like to comment?

[Maj Tim Langlois, Legal Officer, Office of the Judge Advocate General, Directorate of Law, Military Justice Operations, Canadian Forces Provost Marshal]

In those cases where sexual harassment approaches the level of an offence, perhaps under the code of service discipline, something like conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline, that is where there could be a dual investigation, both administrative and disciplinary, going on at the same time.

If there is a belief that the incident approaches the level of conduct that would be disciplinary or against the code of service discipline, the administrative investigation would go into abeyance to allow the military police to do their criminal investigation first. Then it may go back to the administrative investigation as required.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

I'm just wondering, Madam Chair—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'd say you have 10 seconds left.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Okay, that's fine. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

All right. Go ahead, Ms. Crockatt.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you.

We've heard that the incidents of sexual harassment that you have observed over the last two years as commander have been virtually nil. One of the things we sometimes hear on this committee is that it's because things aren't reported. On the other hand, we have large organizations such as the post office who have appeared before us who have actually tracked it and have seen their cases go down to nil.

Do you think yours could be non-reporting, or are you quite confident from your discussions with the men and women who work with you that you do not have a problem with sexual harassment in the workplace?

[LCol J.A. Legere]

Thank you very much, ma'am.

I'm very confident. The military police are a very professional organization, and I'm very proud to be part of the military police. We have a code of professional conduct that is part of our culture, part of our very fabric.

I'm very confident that within our military police group it has nothing to do with non-reporting and everything to do with the very open and very positive culture that we try to inculcate within our units.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

In that vein, what do you think that other departments or areas could learn from how you're doing this? The military was seen in the past as a very masculine organization. We know that your percentage of women is somewhat less than in some other areas, yet you seem to not have a problem in this area. What can we learn from what you're doing?

[LCol J.A. Legere]

I don't know how to respond to that. As I said before, I'm very proud to be a member of the military police. The military police are an essential part of the discipline within the Canadian Armed Forces. We are a tool for the commanding officer to use to ensure that discipline is part of his or her unit. As I said, discipline is the backbone of the Canadian Forces.

We are very fortunate to have a very disciplined force. The military police, by their very nature, have to be shown to be the example. In fact, the motto of the Canadian Provost Corps was “Discipline By Example”. Again, that's inculcated in our young folks at the very, very basic training level.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

“Discipline By Example” might actually be the motto that you're using to defeat sexual harassment in the workplace; it's calling on people to be an example to others. You're actually asking them for a higher quality of respect for one another. Is that right?

[LCol J.A. Legere]

Certainly the military police are held to a higher standard, because we have to police the military. If that creates a positive work environment, then I would say, yes, absolutely.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

We know public awareness programs have quite an impact. It might be something like that, just spreading that motto through your organization. Is there anything else you can think of that might be relevant that we might be able to learn from?

[LCol J.A. Legere]

We have a very progressive training regimen and we bring our folks back to the Military Police Academy at various levels of their career and teach them leadership skills, supervisory skills, refresher training, and everything like that. Again, I think it's part of the whole package.