Evidence of meeting #87 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victims.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Emilie Coyle  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Sarah Niman  Senior Director, Legal Services, Native Women's Association of Canada
Roxana Parsa  Staff Lawyer, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Deepa Mattoo  Executive Director, Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic
Catherine Latimer  Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

12:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic

Deepa Mattoo

—for free independent legal advice to ensure a fair and informed process.

I also share some of the concerns that were presented around the electronic monitoring and the bodily substance sampling.

In conclusion, the voices of survivors echo with an urgency that demands our attention. The fear of domestic violence is not just physical; it's a pervasive threat that lingers in the shadows of survivors' lives.

In your commitment to transforming this system, I ask that you think about the calls to action for a framework that is not only dedicated towards breaking the cycle and building a future without—

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you so much.

I know you're trying to get so much in. I know you've sent in speaking notes, so we'll ask that those be sent out to the committee so that everybody can get all of that information you sent. I know there's a ton.

In the room, we have Catherine.

Catherine, I'm going to pass the floor over to you for five minutes.

November 23rd, 2023 / 12:25 p.m.

Catherine Latimer Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, committee members. It's a great pleasure to be here. I want to thank you very much for seeking the views of the John Howard Society on Bill S-205.

As a charity, we're committed to effective, just and humane responses to the causes and consequences of crime. The John Howard Society is concerned about preventing crime, and about appropriate and effective consequences for having committed crimes.

Preventing intimate partner violence is a shared goal, but our assessment is that there's very little in Bill S-205 that would make a difference in preventing violence.

Bill S-205 amendments really pertain to two areas. One is the judicial interim release provisions, or bail provisions, and the other is the new category of recognizance orders relating to the fear of domestic violence.

In terms of the judicial interim release provisions, there is a heavy reliance, as the other witnesses have mentioned, on electronic monitoring as a condition of pretrial release if it is sought by the Attorney General.

We would first point out that the research on electronic monitoring has been inconclusive in terms of its effectiveness in preventing crime.

Second, the technology is very expensive, and it is important to note who would be paying for the device and for its monitoring. Given that it is the AG who is seeking it, can we safely assume that it would be the AG who is paying for it? That's not always the case; often, individuals who are released on bail or on community sentences are being asked to pay for the monitoring. This actually worsens a class bias in the criminal justice system through which the affluent are more likely to benefit and the marginalized and impoverished, including members of the indigenous and Black communities, are more likely to be denied.

The reverse onus provisions that are being proposed in paragraph 515(6)(b.1) mirror the contentious provisions that were included in Bill C-48, which make prior discharges equivalent to convictions, triggering the reverse onus provision for bail for prior intimate partner violence offences. Many witnesses appearing before the Senate on Bill C-48 cautioned that including discharges would raise charter concerns.

There is almost a retroactive application to this provision, which is troubling. Many accused, including women who are also often charged when it is unclear who initiated the domestic conflict, might have agreed to plead guilty to an offence that might otherwise have been successfully contested at trial on the understanding that the discharge would have no future negative criminal justice implications for them. Now it would.

In any event, the equivalent of this section will have already been accepted or dropped in Bill C-48, making this section duplicative or possibly inconsistent with the will of Parliament.

The second major area is the recognizance orders. Our view is that the proliferation of section 810 orders to reflect the fear of certain types of future crimes is unnecessary and bad policy. Existing sections 810 and 810.2, which specifically refer to intimate partner violence, are adequate to cover those fearing domestic violent offences.

It should be noted that the proposed intimate personal violence recognizance in this bill is triggered by a fear of a personal injury offence, yet section 810.2 recognizance is triggered by a fear of a “serious personal injury offence”. This indicates that the latter category applies to persons who pose more of a threat of serious harm, yet Bill S-205 proposes much harsher treatment of the former for the 810 order than for the 810.2 orders, and this will create a sense of a disproportionate, unfair response based on the severity of the risk posed.

There are also some amendments to the Youth Criminal Justice Act, but I won't get into those for fear of running overtime.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

You have 45 seconds.

12:30 p.m.

Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

Catherine Latimer

In conclusion, the John Howard Society of Canada urges the committee not to pass Bill S-205 at this time, as the House has unanimously passed Bill C-48 and the bill is now in the Senate, which gave attention to the issue of intimate partner violence during the bail process and already includes a key measure that is proposed in this bill. Further, the range of section 810 recognizance orders is already adequate to deal with the fear of intimate partner violence, and the proposals in Bill S-205 are disproportionately harsh.

I agree with what the witnesses had to say before. The criminal justice system has a very limited range of tools that it can use to assist with intimate partner violence. The better answers lie outside the criminal justice system.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Excellent. Thank you so much.

I'm looking at the time, which is 12:32, meaning we have 28 minutes. I'm looking at everybody to say that there are a few suggestions. We can do one round of six minutes and then a lightning round for one minute each, or we can just kind of reduce it by a few minutes so that we get two rounds through.

We're all good. I'm looking at anyone....

Okay, I'm just going to go ahead. We're going to do four minutes for the first round. From there, I'll divide up my time. Okay.

We'll start off with Dominique for four minutes.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Latimer, thank you for travelling today to appear before our committee.

We have the transcripts of the testimony that was heard on Monday, and I am going to read you a short excerpt from Diane Tremblay's testimony:

An electronic bracelet establishes a safety perimeter between victims and their abusers and can prove any failure to comply with conditions. ... Even though I frequently reported my abuser, he always got off scot-free, unlike me. So I'm begging you to seriously consider requiring the wearing of an electronic bracelet. I believe it's a no‑brainer. We deserve to be heard, and for our rights and essential needs to be respected.

I am a bit surprised that you have told us today not to adopt Bill S-205, at least not right now. I think you were in the room earlier. I am really very surprised, and even speechless, given the...

12:30 p.m.

Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

Catherine Latimer

Well, I think there are technical reasons as well as substantive reasons for not proceeding now with Bill S-205. The primary one is that Parliament has already looked at almost the exact wording of the provision in the judicial interim release reverse onus provision, so it will already have made a determination. That bill, Bill C-48, includes a review provision so that the effect of those particular provisions can be looked at and changed more if need be.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

It seems to me that the testimony we have heard and the experience we have had in Quebec with anti-approach bracelets compel us to act and to adopt Bill S-205. Sincerely, I find it hard to see how technical effects can try to persuade us not to adopt this bill.

I am going to stop here, because I do not have much time, Ms. Latimer. It would have been interesting to continue the discussion.

Ms. Mattoo, you are in virtual mode, is that right? Are you there?

12:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Hello, Ms. Mattoo.

If I understand correctly, you support the bill. You may want there to be improvements, but you support Bill S-205, is that right?

12:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic

Deepa Mattoo

I agree with some portions of the bill. I don't agree with the entire bill. I don't agree with all the amendments that are being proposed. I do agree with the voice of the survivors that's been proposed in the bill.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Have you read the testimony that we heard on Monday?

12:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic

Deepa Mattoo

No, unfortunately, I did not. I'm sorry.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Do the excerpts that I read just now, from the testimony of women who came here to the committee, not reflect the reality and very concrete lived experience that urge us to adopt Bill S-205? Does that testimony not say something like: "We are the ones who experience it, we have experienced this situation and we help women, hundreds of women, to try to get out of it"? Should that not be enough to persuade us to take action today?

12:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic

Deepa Mattoo

Unfortunately, because I haven't seen the transcript, I can't say that you should be convinced or not. Absolutely, if you think you should be convinced....

However, what I want to say is that maybe who you need to also hear from are the survivors who, unfortunately, see themselves getting criminalized in the system. I think that's the piece that is missing in the equation.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you so much.

We're now going to pass it over to Emmanuella. Emmanuella, you have four minutes.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to begin by thanking our witnesses for being here, the ones who are on the current panel and also the ones on the previous panel, who have come here to express the views they have and all of their experiences working with these communities who are under-represented and who are overly incarcerated. I appreciate the views that are being brought forward, because it's important to take into account all perspectives when putting forward legislation. I just want to make sure that it's known that I very much appreciate your presence here today.

To both of the witnesses on this panel, you've spoken to some of the shortcomings in Bill S-205. You specifically mentioned shortcomings with regard to prevention and how the bill does little to prevent intimate partner violence. Also, you mentioned the fact that it could put certain communities more in danger than they already are. It could make certain victims get the negative parts of this bill applied to them as well, so it will just increase the amount of inequality that exists in our society.

I am hoping that you heard the previous testimony as well, because there were certain recommendations that were brought forward by previous witnesses, including amendments that could be made to the bill in its current form.

Is there anything that you would like to add in terms of specific amendments that haven't been mentioned already that you think can help bring that prevention piece in or that you think can help those who don't feel protected by the justice system, by police, etc.? What are some of the things that you think we should be including in here if we weren't to completely reject the bill and we were to pass it eventually? What is missing from it, and could you be a little bit more specific?

I'll start with Ms. Mattoo because I see her on the screen, and then we'll go to Ms. Latimer.

12:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic

Deepa Mattoo

There are two things in addition to what I said in my proposed amendments in the beginning that are really important.

In none of the amendments proposed do I see any connection or any comprehensive approach that addresses the causes of the criminal behaviour. There is nothing that explores the integration of mental health services, addiction treatments and social support to facilitate that sense of rehabilitation. While there is a lot of emphasis on these new conditions, there is nothing to say that these conditions should also work with all of those other services that are really crucial for preventing criminal behaviour.

I also think that there is ambiguity in the language of the bill, especially around the recognizance conditions, and there is a lot left to interpretation and application, which can lead to legal challenges. That's one thing, but also I think that there needs to be some concerted effort so that the system is not laced with the bias that we are currently facing for marginalized communities. There needs to be clarification of the legal language for more consistent and transparent applications.

Those would be two things. If the bill has to pass, those would be the two things that I would say should be considered.

Thank you.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you.

Ms. Latimer, do you have anything to add?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

You have 15 seconds, Ms. Latimer.

12:40 p.m.

Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada

Catherine Latimer

Thank you very much.

I don't have much to add, except that I think that what has been proven successful in terms of reducing intimate partner violence—and more work needs to be done—is working on preventing repeat offending, and my hat's off to the government's initiative on the federal framework to reduce recidivism. I think more work needs to be done on that.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Thank you so much.

I'm now going to pass the floor over to Andréanne for four minutes.

12:40 p.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Latimer and Ms. Mattoo, thank you for being with us today to speak about Bill S-205.

Ms. Mattoo, regarding new subsection 515(3.1) that it is proposed to add to the Criminal Code, the justice hearing the application for interim release must first "ask the prosecutor whether the intimate partner of the accused has been consulted about their safety and security needs", where the intimate partner is the victim of the offence alleged.

The present subsection 515(3) states that the justice making an order shall consider "whether the accused is charged with an offence in the commission of which violence was used, threatened or attempted against their intimate partner". In a case in which the presumed victim is not the intimate partner of the accused, are there other things that should be done to protect the intimate partner or the victim?

12:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic

Deepa Mattoo

In many situations the person is not necessarily an intimate partner. That intimate partner line can be really restricting. I'm really glad you asked that question. In terms of what else needs to be asked about, it is where the threat is coming from, who this person is, what safety concerns are being raised and what safety resources are being offered.

I feel, as I said in my submission, that the language being proposed right now is very minimalist. Although I do really celebrate that there is a proposal to create space for the voice of the survivors, it seems that it is very limiting. There needs to be more inquiry into what is going to happen when someone discloses the threat. You can't just ask what threat someone is facing and then not offer safety to the person. That's the big missing link.