Status of Women Committee on Jan. 30th, 2024

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

In this particular young woman's case, this criminal—I call him a criminal—was released on bail and he committed numerous crimes right after that, before anyone could get to him.

We're defeating the purpose here if we're not here to protect the women who are assaulted, because as we all know, most of these assaults occur against women—against us.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

If there are no further speakers, can I call the question?

Shall G-5 carry?

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 5; nays 3 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I know we are a very good committee, and we agree and we operate by consensus. I noted also that, by consensus, Mrs. Vecchio did not vote, but I think that she abstained from voting, which I think sets a precedent.

I would just like to note that, because we are normally chaired by a Conservative member in this committee, that means that if the chair is not actually physically present, which is the first time it's happened because of COVID, that would give the Conservatives four votes, which in every other committee is three votes.

I'm not asking for any remedy at the moment, but what I would like to do is just acknowledge that we're not setting a precedent by calling on Mrs. Vecchio and having her abstain—that's not a precedent of having four votes for the Conservatives. I don't think it's going to happen again, so I'm not that concerned, but I just don't want it to be a precedent.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Karen, do you want to say something? Your hand is up.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Yes. Thanks very much, Anita.

I really appreciate your bringing that up, because I think, as everybody knows, that being in the chair is probably one of the best joys I have working with everybody on this committee. Unfortunately, sometimes things are tied down, and I'm tied down to my riding right now.

Thank you very much, Anita. This is not a precedent. This is just called working together. We have agreed that I would abstain from these votes as the chair so that we maintain those numbers.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Thank you, Karen.

Next, we have NDP-2.

I'll ask if the member will move it.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Sure. Thank you so much.

I want to move that Bill S-205, in clause 2, be amended by adding after line 31 on page 2 the following:

(4.1) If the informant or the defendant is Indigenous, the provincial court judge shall consider whether, instead of making an order under subsection (3) or (4), it would be more appropriate to recommend that Indigenous support services, if any are available, be provided.

I think it's something that was long fought for in terms of recognizing the impacts of colonization, the Gladue principles, and principles that were supported in the Ipeelee case.

I am merely ensuring that it's consistent with Canadian law. That's it.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

There are no further speakers. I see nodding heads.

Shall NDP-2 carry?

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I'm sorry, but can I just ask for a quick recess for two seconds? I just need to ask my colleague something about this one.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

I will suspend for two minutes.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

We'll resume the meeting.

Anna, go ahead.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I have a question.

Leah, perhaps you can help me understand. On the support services that are offered, is there anything we could do to maybe implement the benefit to all women, not just indigenous? I'm really interested in knowing that, because it sounds like you guys have a handle on it. Is there anything that we could learn from it?

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

We have a handle on it because we're overrepresented in the justice system. In all honesty, I think it's related to culturally appropriate supports and different alternative justice methods for healing based on the person who is appearing before the courts.

For example, if the person has attended residential school or has grown up in child welfare, we look to the Gladue principles. Especially in B.C., they have really solid supports using the Gladue principles.

I think that it is critical, and I think that the justice system recognizes that acknowledging critical differences that have resulted from colonization is important, but what I've been saying about the overall justice system is that we know, particularly with violent offenders, that punishment doesn't deal with the violence. Often therapeutic approaches, as we heard from witnesses, are important.

That's why I have the amendment, just so you know, and it's a critical one. Particularly—and I know, Michelle, that you appreciate this—our committee also has Bill C-15, and all legislation going forward has to be compatible. This is another example of that. It's just keeping it consistent with Canadian law.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Go ahead, Dominique.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Could our colleague elaborate on this? I think that she referred to the Gladue decision. Is that right? Is she talking about the Gladue decision?

We may know a little about the decision. However, for the sake of the people tuning in, I think that Ms. Gazan or the legal experts should explain the basics to us.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Given a certain case, the judge can apply Gladue principles in—

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order. I don't have access to the interpretation.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Is it good now? Okay.

In certain cases, the judge can apply Gladue principles so that they'll look at alternative forms of justice. For example, if they know that the case is a result of certain behaviours that are clearly connected with colonial trauma, going to a healing centre instead of being incarcerated.... I'll give you an example. Let's say that you go to residential school, and you spend 10 years in incarceration. Then you have somebody who's been incarcerated for most of their life. When they leave jail, it won't have changed their behaviour. If it's about changing behaviour and ending violence, tough-on-crime approaches don't work with violence. You have to look at each case and individual differently and take the history into consideration in the ruling, and that's why we have the Gladue principles.

In B.C., they've done a really good job. They have a really robust program using the Gladue principles. There's high success, and we see less recidivism. That's why I put the amendment forward.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

That was my next question.

What are the benefits of the Gladue principles? Is there less recidivism?

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

It takes into consideration the historical circumstances that have resulted in a certain behaviour and addressing the historical circumstances that resulted in the behaviour.

In Manitoba, we have had many restorative justice programs, and the results are good. They have found that the results in terms of less recidivism are very good, even in terms of things like restorative justice circles.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Go ahead, Anna.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Leah, can you explain something to me?

Would this also apply to repeat offenders?

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I think this is exactly why you apply Gladue principles: You don't want to see repeat offending.

Yes, as part of the consideration, they would apply Gladue principles. That doesn't mean that it will turn out the same way if you continue to offend. They will apply the principles, but that doesn't mean the end result is going to be the same in terms of the judgment.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

If someone repeats—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

In all fairness, this is the clear answer. If you look at the justice system and the overincarceration of indigenous and Black people, I don't think you have to worry about seeing indigenous people put in jail, because one of the main criticisms of the justice system is the overrepresentation and overincarceration rates of indigenous people.

Maybe we have Gladue principles, but we probably need more to deal with systemic racism in the justice system. That's why I'm saying that. I'm not saying it facetiously; these are real-time facts.