Evidence of meeting #16 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was noise.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gilles Dufault  Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency
Seymour Isenberg  Director General, Rail and Marine Branch, Canadian Transportation Agency
Joan MacDonald  Director General, Air and Accessible Transportation Branch, Canadian Transportation Agency

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you, and good afternoon everyone.

This is meeting 16 of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. Following the orders of the day, we're here to deal with Bill C-11, an act to amend the Canada Transportation Act and the Railway Safety Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

Joining us today are Gilles Dufault, Joan MacDonald, and Seymour Isenberg from the Canadian Transportation Agency.

As we are right on schedule, I would ask that you make your opening presentation, and the committee will then have some questions for you following that.

Mr. Dufault, the floor is yours.

3:30 p.m.

Gilles Dufault Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, committee members, my name is Gilles Dufault and I have been the Acting Chairman of the Canadian Transportation Agency since July 1st of this year. It is my pleasure to be with you here this afternoon to answer any questions that committee members might have with respect to Bill C-11. I am accompanied today by Mr. Seymour Isenberg and Ms. Joan MacDonald, respectively Director General of Rail and Marine Transportation and Director General of Air and Accessible Transportation.

First of all, I would like to take a few minutes to describe our organization and its responsibilities. Before I begin, it is worthwhile to point out that the current Canadian Transportation Agency is actually Canada's oldest administrative tribunal, one whose mandate and fields of jurisdiction have evolved along with the changes that have taken place in the country's transportation system.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

May I interrupt you?

Do you have a written presentation? I've had a request to ask if there's anything. Would you be prepared to share it with the committee as you go through it?

3:30 p.m.

Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Gilles Dufault

I don't know if I have a copy of my text. I know we have given a copy to the translators to facilitate their work.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

That's fine. We quite often get the written presentation. We'll get it when they've finished preparing it.

3:35 p.m.

Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Gilles Dufault

May I continue?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I'm sorry for the interruption.

3:35 p.m.

Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Gilles Dufault

The modern-day Agency is an independent administrative tribunal with a mandate to interpret and apply transportation legislation as well as the federal government's related policies, act as an economic regulator (when necessary), and via various means such as education, consultations and essential regulation, ensure that market forces prevail in the pursuit of an efficient and accessible federally-regulated transportation network.

The current legislation stipulates that the Agency is made up of a maximum of seven permanent members and three temporary members. The members, who are named by Order-in-Council, come from all regions of Canada and bring to our decision-making process a vast array of personal experience. The Governor-in-Council appoints from among the members a Chairperson, who serves as the organization's Chief Executive Officer in addition to being a full-time member, as well as a Vice-Chairperson, who replaces the Chair when absent. Currently the Agency has a complement of six permanent, full-time members.

Because of its mandate and various fields of jurisdiction, the Agency has built a multi-disciplinary team of a wide variety of experience and professional skills. Some 260 staff members support the members in their decision-making and in resolving disputes between transportation providers, shippers and transportation providers, and consumer and transportation providers.

The Agency is an independent quasi-judicial tribunal that renders decisions on a great number of economic matters related to modes of transportation subject to federal jurisdiction (that is, air, rail and marine) and has the powers of a superior court in exercising its jurisdiction. In doing so, we assist both providers and users in resolving their disputes outside the formal litigation process (when possible) and impose regulation only when necessary.

In the rail sector, the Agency issues certificates of fitness for the construction and operation of railways, rules on rate and service complaints as well as on disputes between railways and other parties on infrastructure and access issues. We also set interswitching rates, determine net salvage value for the transfer of lines and establish the maximum revenue entitlement for the transportation of Western grain.

On the marine side, the Agency is the tribunal of appeal for pilotage authority fees and has a mandate to protect Canadian shipowners by ensuring that Canadian-flagged vessels are given priority for any marine transportation between two ports in Canadian waters.

With respect to air transportation, the Agency issues licences to Canadian and foreign airlines, applies the requirements related to these licences and issues charter permits. It also takes part in negotiations for international air agreements and oversees their implementation, in addition to handling consumer air travel complaints.

Finally, the Agency enforces legislation in various areas and works toward the accessibility of Canada's transportation system. Eliminating undue obstacles to the mobility of persons with disabilities is an important part of the Agency's mandate. Through its decisions, issued in response to complaints, the Agency contributes to the progressive elimination of these obstacles. It has the power to impose regulations, but prefers a more flexible and effective approach: consultations, education, and voluntary code of practice development in cooperation with the community of persons with disabilities and industry representatives.

Given that much of our work is case-driven, the agency has developed mechanisms that allow it to deal with complaints quickly, effectively, and fairly. A review panel made up of at least two members hears every case and issues a decision. Our decisions are the result of a process based on integrity, transparency, and fairness to all. Thousands of cases, some major, some minor, but always important to the people concerned, are handled by the agency every year. In 2005 we ruled on some 3,800 cases. At any given time, each member carries a caseload of more than 100 files. The agency has duly noted the growth in the popularity of mediation and facilitation as dispute resolution options.

I'm convinced that we will increasingly use these alternative methods in the future in keeping with the expectation of businesses and citizens who look to the Government of Canada to answer their concerns more rapidly and efficiently. We will continue to fulfill our mandate by using modern approaches focused on clients and citizens through dispute resolution and by dealing with complaints filed on the Internet.

Our priority remains the same: being responsive to the transportation industry, its users, and Canadian citizens while operating in an effective manner.

This concludes my brief snapshot of the Agency and its work. Thank you for your attention.

Mr. Chairman, we would now be pleased to answer any questions committee members might have.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much, Mr. Dufault.

We'll start with an open round of questions.

Mr. McGuinty, seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thank you very much, Monsieur Dufault. Merci beaucoup. I have a couple of questions to start, if I could.

To put this in context, you're going to be given some pretty major mandate-expanding responsibilities under this bill, from what I can gather. Maybe they're not as expanding as I assume them to be. But I just want to set that context before I ask you a couple of questions, because I have a remaining fear that you may or may not be able to handle the responsibilities that are being transferred to you. Maybe you can address that, any of you, in your remarks to me and my colleagues to help allay that fear.

I have a couple of specific questions.

First of all, how would the CTA determine airline airfare clarity regulations? How would you determine they were necessary or not necessary in Canadian society, given what the bill is compelling you to do?

Secondly, I want to go to the question of the Air Travel Complaints Commissioner. Mr. Hood, the former commissioner--the former NHL referee as well--eventually ascertained that the ATCC was more than simply a complaints process; it had become a place for advocacy. He has been very critical of the notion that we would remove the independence of the commissioner and have it inserted into a regulatory agency. It reminds me a little bit of law societies, which are at once supposed to be governing the profession while disciplining the profession and at the same time promoting the profession.

I'm just trying to get my head around an average member of the public with a problem. If it's inside the CTA, will the public know if there's a trend? Will the public know that there are fifteen complaints of the same kind going to the CTA, as they might have through the independent Air Travel Complaints Commissioner, for example?

Those are my two points. First, when do you think airline airfare clarity regulations will be necessary? Second is the question of the Air Travel Complaints Commissioner and its being embedded in the CTA.

3:40 p.m.

Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Gilles Dufault

I'll deal with your second question first.

The Air Travel Complaints Commissioner was created to handle complaints for which no remedy whatsoever exists in the legislation. It was to be done on an informal basis through facilitation or mediation, and all the work was to be done by CTA employees under the guidance of the commissioner and so on. If, at the end of the process, an intervention by the commissioner was required, that was done. When we receive complaints there can be multiple subjects in them. If part of a complaint cannot be resolved informally by the air travel complaint people, it is referred to the agency, the agency handles the complaint on a formal basis through its regular processes, and we render a decision based on the evidence provided and submitted by both parties.

Two years ago, the Air Travel Complaints Commissioner position was not abolished, but when the incumbent's mandate finished, she was not replaced. At the same time, following the expenditure review, the government instructed the agency to carry on with the air complaints program while reducing the funding for the Air Travel Complaints Commissioner and also the funding for the program.

Since then we have been carrying on the same responsibility on the air complaints side. In 2005 we dealt with over 1,300 complaints.

The disappearance of the Air Travel Complaints Commissioner role hasn't created a significant problem. We simply lost the senior person at the agency. We continue to handle complaints. We continue to deal with that. We continue to resolve complaints, and we continue to handle complaints that deal with tariffs and other issues under existing CTA jurisdiction.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Mr. Dufault, will your organization hold a press conference every year to outline developments in the sector? Dyane Adam did that when she was Official Language Commissioner, and so does Ms. Gélinas who is the Commissioner for the Environment and Sustainable Development, as well as Mr. Hood, the Air Travel Complaints Commissioner.

3:45 p.m.

Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Gilles Dufault

When Mr. Hood was the Air Travel Complaints Commissioner, he held an annual press conference when he submitted his report. In passing, I was there with him because I had a special mandate. At that time, I worked with him as vice-chair. The report was simply published, and things went from there. What has changed in the legislation is that there will no longer be a commissioner or a press conference. But the report will be part of the Agency's annual report, the same recommendations will be made, and we will be able to deal with the same problems in the same ways.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Laframboise, you have the floor.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

The Canadian Transportation Agency used to have seven members and now there are five.

How many cases do you deal with?

3:50 p.m.

Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Gilles Dufault

As I said earlier, we deal with some 3,800 cases a year.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

But they are not all dealt with by the five commissioners.

3:50 p.m.

Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Gilles Dufault

The five commissioners must sign any decision made by the Agency. Whether it is a written decision or the outcome of representations or hearings, the commissioners or members sign every decision made by the Agency.

The Agency is able to fulfil its mandate with five full-time experienced members. They come from all regions of Canada and are based at the National Capital Commission.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

They have to have a residence—

3:50 p.m.

Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Gilles Dufault

The Agency needs to be able to hear people and make decisions in both official languages.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Is that not the case already?

3:50 p.m.

Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Gilles Dufault

Yes, but we will need to take that into account in appointing the five members.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Right.

3:50 p.m.

Acting chairman, Canadian Transportation Agency

Gilles Dufault

Right now, for example, there is a bilingual member from Alberta, another one from Manitoba and myself.

If the number of members is reduced to five, we need to take that aspect into account in order to be able to hold hearings in regions where cases are dealt with in French.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

What you are really telling us it that up to now bilingualism has not been an obligation.