Evidence of meeting #29 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mcguinty.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brigita Gravitis-Beck  Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport
Alain Langlois  Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Transport
Helena Borges  Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Monsieur Langlois, on websites in the United States, does the minister have any ability to regulate what they put on them? Do we as Canadians have any right to regulate the laws with respect to websites anywhere around the world? Indeed, do we have any right to regulate media outside of our jurisdiction?

5:05 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Transport

Alain Langlois

Do you mean through Canadian law?

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Yes, through Canadian law, so it's beyond our jurisdiction?

5:05 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Transport

Alain Langlois

To regulate this in the United States, yes—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Are there any foreign services, foreign airlines, that originate in Canada? Is it an origination of them when they fly in and fly back? Under the blue skies policy that Mr. Laframboise indicated, isn't it possible that an American carrier that is flying in and out of Canada can actually advertise on a website in the United States, we have no ability whatsoever to regulate them, and they would have a competitive advantage that could cause us economic harm?

5:05 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Transport

Alain Langlois

No. Under the current CTA, if an airline is going to advertise in Canada, it has to have a licence. Obviously, this requirement would be imposed not only on their licensee but also on carriers that originate in Canada. If somebody makes some publicity to sell a flight departing from Canada, he'd be subject to any regulation made under this section.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

What about a return flight?

5:05 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Transport

Alain Langlois

If the flight is sold from Canada, then it includes the return flight, obviously.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Does the department look at this as an economic problem? What is the logistic on it as to why you don't want it to be a shall? Is it just for the minister's discretion so he can impose and decide on the basis of economics?

5:05 p.m.

Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport

Brigita Gravitis-Beck

The minister's discretion is there to take into account the policy considerations that should underpin a regulation to look at the context, domestic and international, to look at what other jurisdictions are doing, not just domestically but in terms of key partners, the United States in particular, and to make sure that Canadian industry is not penalized. It is also a measure that is necessary in terms of managing behaviours that may not be appropriate.

I find it interesting that some of the comments were made in terms of a recognition that perhaps there needs to be discretionary power when it comes to safety regulation because there are certain imponderables. Interestingly, again, as a policy wonk, I would say those imponderables also exist when it comes to making policy, and the agency is an administrative body that implements and follows through. It is not a policy body that assesses and evaluates in the same way that the department and the policy group there does. In the sense of the minister having the economic right, it would be fed by recommendations and advice in terms of the constituents and stakeholders, the needs, the requirements, the international context, and then the proposal with respect to a regulation.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Julian.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

In answer to Mr. Jean's question, if a carrier originating outside of Canada but taking flights that originate in Canada breaks Canadian law, what are the alternatives the ministry has? They break Canadian law. They have a licence to operate, the flight is originating in Canada, and they are a foreign carrier, but they break the law. What are the tools the ministry has?

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport

Brigita Gravitis-Beck

The Canadian Transportation Agency can investigate any complaints that pertain to licences it has issued. In the sense that a foreign carrier is not living within the parameters of its tariffs, its terms and conditions, complaints could be registered against that carrier and the agency would have to pursue and evaluate those. It has the mechanisms to impose either penalties or corrections.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

Such as—?

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport

Brigita Gravitis-Beck

It depends on what the parameters are that the carrier is not living within. In some cases they may require compensation. In some cases there may be a penalty levied on the carrier. It depends on what the behaviour is and how it's regulated.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

And they could suspend the licence as well.

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Air Policy, Department of Transport

Brigita Gravitis-Beck

In an extreme situation, absolutely, they could suspend the licence.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

So we have all the tools for the minister to enforce any requirements or regulations we make. That was my point.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. McGuinty.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

I'd like to call for the vote, Mr. Chair. I think we've exhausted the debate. I'm not going to pass judgment on that, but I'd like to suggest that maybe we have.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Carrier.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

I would simply like to ask for a clarification before voting on Mr. McGuinty's amendment.

In the English version of the amendment, the word "shall" is used; we discussed that word at length here, but in the French version, there is no equivalent word "doit". It says in French "L'Office régit, par règlement, [...]"

Since the word "doit" doesn't appear, would the word "régit" have the same significance or is there a slight difference in meaning?

5:10 p.m.

Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Transport

Alain Langlois

Both wordings are acceptable.

Theoretically, the word "doit" should not appear. It was used in the government's motion because it was probably taken directly from the English version. In proper French, the usual translation would be "L'Office régit, par règlement, [...]", it is an obligation to regulate. There is no discretion involved because it says "régit".

Therefore, the French version of Mr. McGuinty's amendment is correct.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC

Well, that is a point in Mr. McGuinty's favour.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Jean.