Transport Committee on April 13th, 2010

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

You're making major statements. Today you said: “And it should be noted that our large carriers have a good safety record.” Did you compare what is going on at the other major carriers in the world?

You're saying we're virtually the best. You're saying we have a good safety record, and yet airlines are shutting down or experiencing financial difficulties. I'm not a connoisseur, but I know that, when there is a problem in the industry, it's often maintenance that suffers the consequences. When things are not going so well, we can afford to have doubts about safety. But you seem to be saying that everything is going well in the best of all possible worlds.

[Jean Laporte]

Canadian statistics on accident rates by operator category show that the level of safety in Canada is generally better than in other countries. Perhaps my colleague can give you some more details on that subject, if you wish.

If we compare the statistics provided by each of the countries, statistics that are shared throughout the ICAO, we realize that Canada has a better accident rate than the others.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Let's take Transport Canada as an example. They say that there were fewer accidents in 2008 than in 2007, but we don't know whether there were fewer flights. That statistic wasn't mentioned. I understand that you can take what's good from the statistics, but when the people were asked whether there had been a decline in air traffic, they didn't know. They provided us with documents, but I find that a bit strange. They told us there were fewer accidents, but they did not tell us whether there had been fewer flights that year than in previous years.

[Jean Laporte]

We can provide those statistics to committee members since we have them.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

That would be very much appreciated. You only have to hand them over to the Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Ms. Brown.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses for being here.

I'd first like to compliment you on the DVD that you provided to my office. I was very impressed with the work that went into that, and most impressed with the expertise that was demonstrated in the accident investigations. You gave a very thorough report on how you go about your work, and I'd like to thank you for providing that. So compliments to whoever put that together. I would recommend that DVD to all of my colleagues. It certainly would be very helpful in understanding the processes you go through.

Perhaps most of our discussion today has focused on aviation safety, and it may be because of this most recent incident in Europe. Our hearts go out to the Polish people who have lost so many of their leaders. I think perhaps we need to take a look at our safety here and re-evaluate the process you go through on a regular basis.

Mr. Laporte was speaking earlier about comparisons to other countries. I wonder if you can give us a general overview of all of the areas you investigate--land, air, and sea. I don't know how we do this in comparison with countries in Europe that are perhaps landlocked and don't have the same kinds of naval investigations that need to go on, but can you give us some sense of how Canada compares with other jurisdictions?

Maybe I can just preface all of that by saying that you said earlier in your report, Ms. Tadros, that the Transportation Safety Board started bringing things forward in 1995 and again in 2003. How are we doing now in 2010 with our investigations, and changing safety for Canadians? Obviously, that is a priority for our government. We want to ensure that any transportation method is safe for Canadians.

Can you comment on that?

[Wendy Tadros]

I'll start by saying thank you for your positive comments on the video. This was a video that was produced in-house by our experts with no outside help, so we're very, very proud of it.

In terms of the investigations we do, we investigate in aviation, rail, marine, and pipeline. In terms of how we compare with other countries, we are part of an organization called the International Transportation Safety Association, which is a body comprised of all of the independent investigative bodies. I would say that there are different models used around the world. We are probably closest to the Australian model.

Some investigative bodies, like the NTSB in the States, do road accidents. In Britain, for instance, they have three different models. So they have a different branch that does aviation, a different branch that does marine, and a different branch that does rail. Some in Europe and in the Far East are only aviation. So you have a mixture of different models across the world, but all of those bodies use the same methods and they follow the international protocols set down by ICAO in annex 13, which is what we follow at the TSB for all our aviation investigations.

I'm not sure if I've totally answered your questions, but....

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Can you give us some sense of how Canada compares with other jurisdictions on our safety? Are we making improvements? How do we measure against other countries?

[Wendy Tadros]

We would be pleased to provide you with those statistics if you want a comparison between Canadian accident rates and accident rates worldwide. There may be some of those comparisons that are difficult to draw because the statistics are compiled in a different way, or the industries are substantially different. For instance, the rail industry in Japan is going to be very, very different from the rail industry in Canada. But we'd be pleased to provide you with those statistics.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

In your remarks you made a couple of comments about March 16. You said that on March 16 the Transportation Safety Board of Canada launched its watchlist. I understand that you're very pleased with that. Then you talk further on about how Transport Canada went one step further and decided to take back the certification and oversight of business aviation. So can you talk about your response to this? Why are you pleased? What do you think this is going to do for safety in Canada? How is this going to impact what you do?

[Wendy Tadros]

We're pleased, because these recommendations were made public in November of last year, and I would characterize the response as fairly swift. The early indications are that this is going to address the safety issues we raised in the Fox Harbour report and in those recommendations.

As with all our recommendations, the proof is in the pudding, so we will be tracking the response. And the timeline is for about a year from now in terms of business aviation. So we'll be keeping on top of that, talking to Transport Canada about their efforts. We will be rating the response to those recommendations, and those ratings are posted on our website.

But the initial feeling is that it was a very positive uptake.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you. And I would ask that for anything you submit, do it through the chair or through the clerk's office and we'll distribute it.

Ms. Crombie.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

There are a couple of things I just want to pursue on the line of questioning on the watchlist. Have you adequately identified all the potential risks to transport safety on the watchlist?

[Wendy Tadros]

No. There are hundreds and hundreds of risks, and they are identified in all of our reports--thousands and thousands of reports--in the last 20 years. These are the nine most critical issues that we think need to be tackled to make the system safer.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I have the sense--and I'm new to the committee, of course--that this is somewhat reactionary rather than proactive and preventative. Why wait for a problem to address an issue? Do you do anything that's investigative to be more forthright and more proactive in identifying risks?

[Wendy Tadros]

We investigate when there is an accident. When we look at the facts of a particular accident and determine what we have the most to learn, then we will do a full investigation. And all of the facts we find in that investigation are made public. I think it's proactive in the sense that if you've learned these lessons and you've made a recommendation, what we are saying is that this is what needs to be fixed so you don't have another accident.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

One of the items on the watchlist you identified of course was the controlled flight into terrain, and over nine years that happened 129 times and it accounts for 25% of all fatalities. So why wasn't something done about this sooner, and what has been done?

[Mark Clitsome]

Yes, we made a recommendation to Transport Canada.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Did Transport Canada follow the recommendation?

[Mark Clitsome]

Transport Canada did follow the recommendation and it's taken a long time to get it through the legislative process.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Where are we at?

[Mark Clitsome]

It's just recently been approved by the Department of Justice and CARAC and they're now taking an impact analysis study at Transport Canada.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

So how many years has it taken?

[Mark Clitsome]

Fifteen years.