Evidence of meeting #73 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contractors.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thanks very much, gentlemen, for being here this afternoon.
Mr. Harris, could I go to your bill for a second? Where is the bill in terms of progress through the house at Queen's Park?
4:45 p.m.
MPP Kitchener-Conestoga, Legislative Assembly of Ontario
It was tabled for first reading on May 16.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
MPP Kitchener-Conestoga, Legislative Assembly of Ontario
It has not been debated yet.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Do you have any indication what the position of other parties will be with respect to the bill?
4:45 p.m.
MPP Kitchener-Conestoga, Legislative Assembly of Ontario
We're hopeful other parties will see this issue in the way we have, and the fact that it's about fairness and competition, of course. As we mentioned earlier, a lot of mayors and municipalities and school boards have asked for this change to occur through the LUMCO resolution in 2008. I've had conversations with my colleagues within the Region of Waterloo from both parties, and I hope they will be supportive of this when it is called for debate.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
I'll pick up on my colleague's question and explore a bit more evidence about the magnitude of this problem.
I know you're probably not in a position to tell us exactly how many municipalities and public authorities might be affected by this in Ontario. Is that right?
4:45 p.m.
MPP Kitchener-Conestoga, Legislative Assembly of Ontario
I can tell you, though, the ones that have been affected to date. The City of Hamilton, of course, the City of Toronto, the Greater Essex School Board, and Sault Ste. Marie are some of the municipalities and school boards that have currently been affected. Of course, the Region of Waterloo is pending that certification, so it's a significant amount of municipalities. Really, where the growth is happening is where they're certified and are now prone to these provisions.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Do you have any evidence you can share with us about, say, the exact proportion of municipalities or public authorities that are affected by this, writ large across the province?
4:50 p.m.
MPP Kitchener-Conestoga, Legislative Assembly of Ontario
I think the volume of work is significant enough. If you look at some of the significant infrastructure projects happening in Ontario, if you look at the big build in Toronto with its transit, if you look at the Pan Am Games, for instance, coming up. Ivor Wynne Stadium is now subject to, in essence, a labour monopoly and restrictive clauses that forbid contractors from bidding that large project with the Pan Am Games.
In my own region alone, we have the single largest infrastructure project of its time, the light rail transit system, $820 million. That's some significant infrastructure dollars that would be subject to limited competition.
4:50 p.m.
Spokesperson, Melloul-Blamey Construction Inc.
I would add the Union Station renovation project: tripartite funding, $560 million, I believe, and wall-to-wall union. The Spadina subway extension: $2.5 billion, again tripartite funding, and wall-to-wall union.
These are significant dollars. You have an infrastructure deficit at the Toronto community housing authority of $750 million, and they're going downhill, because the prices they're getting in that sector from unionized contractors are just.... They're the ones that go over the 40%.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
I take it, then, that neither of you are in a position to really give us any hard evidence about the proportion of municipalities or public authorities in the province that are actually affected by closed bidding systems. Do you have any evidence? Do you have a document you could table with us, or some kind of analysis?
4:50 p.m.
MPP Kitchener-Conestoga, Legislative Assembly of Ontario
Yes, I can. In fact, I can table the Cardus report that was done. The Cardus report states that if the Region of Waterloo were to become subject to these labour restrictions, in fact, 28% of Ontario's population would be subject to labour monopolies.
My region alone, the Region of Waterloo, represents just over half a million taxpayers, and that would be Ontario's fourth major urban centre to be subject to those labour monopolies. I'd reference the Cardus report.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Does the Cardus report tell members of this committee exactly what proportion of Ontario municipalities are affected by closed bidding systems?
4:50 p.m.
MPP Kitchener-Conestoga, Legislative Assembly of Ontario
Well, I think, as I had stated, that 20% of Ontario's population would be subject to labour monopolies. I can't give you the numbers off the top of my head, but 20% of Ontarians, so....
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Can I explore the 40% number in your press release?
You assert that it increases infrastructure costs, I guess in every case, by 40%. Are there cases when it increases by 20%? Are there cases when it's net neutral? Are there cases when it's actually less expensive?
Again, do you have any analysis for us to help us understand how you arrived at the 40% number?
4:50 p.m.
MPP Kitchener-Conestoga, Legislative Assembly of Ontario
I can tell you that the 40% number came from a City of Hamilton report, in fact, done by the city to evaluate the implications of closed tendering within that jurisdiction.
4:50 p.m.
MPP Kitchener-Conestoga, Legislative Assembly of Ontario
Yes.
I'll go back and reference that Cardus report again. In fact, the carpenters' union themselves admit that the costs in Hamilton had risen by 2%. Initially, the city found that it was 5%, and then, after the city consulted with a consultant to do a report, they reported that costs jumped by 40%. That's where that 40% number is coming from.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
4:50 p.m.
MPP Kitchener-Conestoga, Legislative Assembly of Ontario
Yes, and I think that's a pretty good example to use. The City of Hamilton has gone through the certification. They're a closed-tendering municipality. I think it's reflective of what happens in other municipalities.
I believe the Essex County school board suggested that there are at least 5% to 10% increased costs.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Are there any other provinces where there's an existing equivalent closed bidding system that has moved to bring in the measures you're proposing for Ontario?
4:50 p.m.
Spokesperson, Melloul-Blamey Construction Inc.
The only jurisdiction in Canada that has anything close to this would be Manitoba right now, where you have project labour agreements, which are government agreements in a certain sector, like the Red River flood project. That was under a project labour agreement, where they restricted the workers on it to be union only.
But no other jurisdiction in North America has the peculiarities that we have in Ontario, where a municipality basically is certified by the labour board and becomes a contractor. The contracts they're bound by are negotiated by the contractors, and the city doesn't have any say in negotiating. That's completely unique. That's what Mr. Harris' bill chooses to change.
