Transport Committee on May 23rd, 2013

[David McDonald]

Where did you get that possibly from?

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

From Metrolinx.

[David McDonald]

Well, I talked to Metrolinx about a month ago at a TTC meeting and they said the exact opposite. They are getting a great deal of cooperation on their projects in hiring local Toronto workers from underprivileged neighbourhoods.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

I'm running into exactly the opposite on the air-rail link construction project coming through my riding. They have refused to allow there to be any apprentices on that project. Metrolinx was asked to supply apprenticeships to an apprenticeship system, and they refused, saying, “No, we have non-union contractors. We cannot get them. We will not get them.”

[David McDonald]

I will ask you to get my contact information—

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

I know that Metrolinx is embarrassed by that, and they're trying to do something different on the big dig, but I'm talking about—

[David McDonald]

You give me that information.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Absolutely.

[David McDonald]

I'll try to take care of it for you, because I know a lot of those contractors and they're very concerned that they're doing exactly the right thing, including hiring adults as apprentices from underprivileged neighbourhoods, as they were asked to do.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Let's go on from that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

You're out of time, Mr. Sullivan.

Did you have something to add, Mr. Harris?

[Michael Harris]

We can come back to it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

If you're commenting directly on Mr. Sullivan's question, go ahead.

[Michael Harris]

I think there is some information there that in fact you have incorrect, sir, and you know what? The Harris government did in fact try to correct this loophole through the construction employer application process, but it's the intent or how the Labour Relations Board determines this, and so that's where we have the problem. My bill clarifies that municipalities and school boards are exempt from those provisions within the act.

But I want to state that this is not about a union versus non-union issue, because in fact this prevents a lot of unionized workers from being employed on or working for public infrastructure projects across Ontario. In fact in my bill, I specifically state that. I have my notes here. I've circulated the bill to everyone. To alleviate any concerns about bargaining rights, in general the bill expressly states that a union can still organize public sector employers under sections 1 to 125 of the Labour Relations Act.

So I want to make it very clear, this is not union versus non-union, because in fact I have union support on this bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Watson, you have five minutes.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing today.

No one would ever suggest that the way to have cheaper retail gasoline is to have fewer oil companies, less refining capacity, and fewer gas retailers. For those of us in the Windsor-Detroit area who understand what a private monopoly looks like with the Ambassador Bridge, who have been arguing that a competitive bridge under public oversight would cut into revenues for them, if you do a comparison, their tolls are 35% higher than the bridge tolls at the Blue Water Bridge in Sarnia, and 42% higher than the Peace Bridge in Niagara. So I don't think that anybody is going to argue that monopolies are cheaper.

That's a tough way to argue, especially when the carpenters' union local 18 in Hamilton agrees that there's cost inflation, although they won't say why cost inflation exists. They defend it instead. I have a quote here that they said they “have been providing Hamilton with superior craftsmanship and a construction product that is second-to-none”.

I agree it's second to none, because nobody else can challenge that. Unions have argued that this is a race to the bottom, that projects would not be safer. There are provincial health and safety provisions that are in law, are there not?

[David McDonald]

Very much so.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Okay. We have professional associations that govern their members based on their qualifications, or their ability to meet certification and qualifications. Is that not true?

[David McDonald]

You have to meet both safety and quality, and productivity criteria to pre-qualify on most public projects.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Now those are arguments, by the way, that unions would typically make against non-union workers, but in fact closed tendering affects other unionized workers.

[Michael Harris]

Right.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I find it curious that they would argue that both quality—a race to the bottom—and safety on projects are somehow applicable to other unionized workers. That just seems absurd.

Under Mr. McGuinty's more successful brother—we're glad you're back at this committee, by the way—the Toronto District School Board, Government of Ontario, renewed the exclusive contract between the Toronto District School Board and the Maintenance and Construction Skilled Trades Council. Cardus estimates the construction cost inflation of the renewal at $120 million, if I'm not mistaken.

The Greater Essex County District School Board was mentioned earlier, Penny Allen. They religiously documented purchase orders for a period of three years and pegged the cost inflation at somewhere between 10% and 20%. So this is an important issue that we're tackling here.

Now, the federal government is not interested in amending or changing labour laws.

Mr. Harris, I would say that what you're doing structurally is an attempt to actually address the issue, the way it could be solved, and that's through provincial labour laws. Having said that, the federal government does have an interest when it funds projects to ensure that taxpayer dollars go further. That's the interest, I think, of this committee in looking at the issue.

We've seen an agreement with Nova Scotia since 2007. I believe the way it works is it essentially suspends the collective bargaining agreements application to a specific infrastructure or construction project to allow that to be tendered openly. Is that your understanding of how that provision works as well?

[David McDonald]

I'm not an expert.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

That's how I understand it to work. Having the same thing apply to projects in Ontario, would simply allow projects in which the federal government is a funding partner to have open tendering.

Would you want this committee to recommend that in our framework agreements with the provinces, including the Province of Ontario, we seek to have this type of provision, which is already in effect in Nova Scotia, apply to projects in Ontario?

[David McDonald]

It wouldn't be the perfect solution, but it would be very adequate, along with an exclusion of PLAs.