Evidence of meeting #14 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was spill.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John O'Connor  President, Canadian Maritime Law Association
Scott Wright  Operations Manager, Operational Response Readiness, Western Canada Marine Response Corporation
Rashid Sumaila  Professor, University of British Columbia, Fisheries Economics Research Unit, As an Individual

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses who came to meet us today. They have given us very useful information that will help us better understand the situation and ask more relevant questions.

I have a question for Mr. O'Connor.

One of the concerns we have is with respect to liability. We were talking about a limit of $185 million for the ship owners, and then there would be the HNS fund, the international fund, which would cover the rest. If I'm not mistaken, the maximum was $500 million, and after that, one of the concerns we had was that taxpayers would have to foot the bill.

You're proposing a solution that for us is very interesting. I would definitely love to have your written wording, if you could table it with the committee. It would be very interesting for us to look at that.

Also, could you tell us more in terms of why it would be unwise to have an unlimited liability?

9:10 a.m.

President, Canadian Maritime Law Association

John O'Connor

I would be pleased to answer.

First, I would be pleased to submit to the committee a list of the sections. There are six sections. It's very, very simple. It's to remove simple wording in each section, which says, “as respects oil”. By removing that wording, we're not just limiting ourselves to oil. That's the proposal, but I'm happy to give it to the committee in writing. I will contact the committee after this meeting to get the coordinates. I'll send you the information; before the end of this week is not a problem, today or tomorrow.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you very much.

9:10 a.m.

President, Canadian Maritime Law Association

John O'Connor

To get back to liability, as you understand, our recommendation is to extend the use of the ship-source oil pollution fund into HNS. It's precisely to give an additional layer of protection. This can be adjusted by Parliament, but at present, approximately $160 million Canadian of additional money would be available for each spill of HNS, if we were to do as our association proposes.

The first thing to understand is that if you're trying to look at unlimited or higher liability, you can only look at the SOPF. Why? The way this convention works is that there is a ship involved that is doing the spill; it had an accident. The ship has liability for a first amount of money, which you said is approximately $185 million. In fact it's 115 million SDRs, which is probably about $185 million Canadian or $200 million Canadian. That's what the shipowner and his insurer pay. Beyond that you have the fund for up to 500 million SDRs on the international level. That's how it works.

In the convention, and our association supports the convention, it says the shipowner cannot be asked to pay more, and it says that the fund will not pay more; so it's limited liability for those two. Who else could pay? We recommend that it not be unlimited, but that the SOPF would be used to give an additional layer of protection, at present $160 million, that can be adjusted by Canada. That's our recommendation.

Why do we not believe in unlimited liability? It's pretty simple. It's because it's an idea that is attractive. In French we call it a chimère. It's attractive, but it can never be realized. The reason is as follows. If you have unlimited liability, that obviously means there's no limit. The way the tanker expert panel conceives it, for example, is they say they can't affect the liability of the shipowner; they can't affect the liability of the fund; all they can do is say that SOPF will have unlimited liability for a spill. That way Canadians are guaranteed they will never have to pay anything for a spill. That's the theory.

In reality the way it works is the SOPF would in the Exxon Valdez case where, let's say, $1 billion has come from the international regime and it cost $6 billion, so then $5 billion more has to be paid. Their theory was that the SOPF will borrow $5 billion from the Canadian government and will clean up everything and then will pay back $5 billion, presumably plus some interest, to the government over a period of time. That's the theory they put forward.

We believe that does not work. Why? If you do that, the SOPF triggers the levy to get enough money to pay back the government. It's built into Canada's legislation that if ever the SOPF needs more funding than they have, they then invoke a levy. The levy means that for each barrel or each cubic metre of oil that comes in or goes out of Canada, a charge is going to be paid. Those charges would mostly have to be absorbed by the oil companies that are importing or exporting oil. The SOPF would get the $5 billion back by imposing a levy, presumably over a period of years because it's a lot of money. They would impose a levy that's not there now and would tell the oil companies that they have to pay them so much per barrel from now on until they've paid back the $5 billion, even though they may not have been involved in the spill. That's how it works. They're going to go to the oil companies to get that money back.

What does that mean? This is in no way a criticism of the oil companies, but it means their operating costs have increased, and therefore the price of gas and the products they sell will have to be increased to compensate for that. At the end of the day what happens in that example is that the people who are really paying back the $5 billion are not the oil companies through the levy as much as it is the consumers in Canada who are buying products from these companies, including gasoline, heating oil, etc. That's how it works.

The other choice would be they won't have unlimited liability, in which case the SOPF will pay out its $160 million. If it takes $5 billion more, and let's hope it never happens—the Exxon Valdez is the worst oil spill ever in the world—but if it were to happen in Canada, we would have to figure out what we were going to do. The only thing we could do would be to spend taxpayers' money. That way the taxpayers would have to contribute little by little over the years to refund the spill.

To say that we're going to make the liability unlimited on SOPF is not, in our mind, a real solution. It looks good, but at the end of the day it will be shared among Canadians one way or the other. Although not all Canadians buy gas—most do—not all Canadians pay income tax either. Either way you're just sharing it among the people who are paying.

To our mind, we shouldn't get involved in that. Rather, we should figure out how much we need and set a cap on the SOPF.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Hoang Mai NDP Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you very much.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Your time has expired, Mr. Mai.

Mr. Simms, you have seven minutes.

February 27th, 2014 / 9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Mr. O'Connor, I'll start with you on this one and then I'll throw it open to the other guests as well.

On the SOPF, does it have to be an oil tanker to be eligible for funding in case of a mishap?

9:15 a.m.

President, Canadian Maritime Law Association

John O'Connor

No, it does not.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Okay. I'll give you an actual example, and I'll open this up to Mr. Wright as well, because he may know something about this.

Recently there was a major operation called hot tapping. It involved a ship called the Zalinski. I'm sure you ladies and gentlemen are familiar with the Zalinski and the cleanup effort that was recently done.

Was that eligible for the ship-source oil pollution fund, Mr. O'Connor?

9:15 a.m.

President, Canadian Maritime Law Association

John O'Connor

I wouldn't like to speak to the Zalinski or to any other particular case where I'm not really intimately aware of the facts, but I would say this. The ship-source oil pollution fund as it exists right now only deals with oil, not yet with HNS, but it deals with all aspects of oil coming from a ship. It's a ship-source oil pollution fund, so it's for any oil coming out of a ship, whether it be bunkers, cargo, in barrels, or anything else that comes into the water. The ship-source oil pollution fund is available for that.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

I apologize, Mr. Wright, because I don't have a lot of time, but allow me to go to the east coast now.

A boat carrying paper left northeastern Newfoundland and sank in 1985. The name of the boat was the Manolis L. It contained slightly under 500 tonnes of bunker C, and it contained, we suspect, slightly under 100 tonnes of diesel. The crack in the ship is now—

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

A point of order, Chair.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Is that part of the SOPF?

9:15 a.m.

President, Canadian Maritime Law Association

John O'Connor

No, it is not.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

On a point of order, Mr. Watson.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Chair, while I appreciate the interest in the ship-source oil pollution fund, with respect, I'm failing to see the connection to the HNS protocol. Bill C-3 addresses gaps in the HNS protocol. It's not addressing the oil regime, if you will, at all. Unless he's tying it into the HNS protocol here, I fail to see the relevance of the line of questioning.

Maybe he's getting to it, but—

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Are you going to tie it into that, Mr. Simms?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

I don't think I have much of a choice, do I?

Because it is not part of it, would what you're proposing here, expanding using the HNS, cover incidents like that? Specifically, why would that not be covered?

9:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Maritime Law Association

John O'Connor

Let's talk HNS so that your colleagues don't get all excited.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Bless you.

9:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Maritime Law Association

John O'Connor

The changes we're proposing would include such a ship. Let's assume a ship sinks and it has HNS cargo on board. Nothing is coming out yet, but we think it might come out in a few years' time. Yes, the SOPF, in our proposal, would cover that, as they do now. They would cover it in the sense that it is a risk of pollution that is a realistic risk, and therefore the funding is available to get the cargo out or to pump it out, etc.

The problem you have with the example you gave of something, even if it were HNS, that happened a long time ago and that we didn't do anything about, is that there are other aspects in these bills, such as the time bar. What was the law at the time the ship went down, etc.?

You can't go back in the past. They tried to do it with the Irving Whale by suing the SOPF and they failed. They also sued the international fund and failed.

I don't recommend that we do it for things that happened 25 years ago, but rather that we be proactive. When a ship sinks today, if it does happen, even if not a drop of any HNS is coming out, people should get expertise now on what we can do, what we can get in place to get that cargo out of there to avoid something happening in 20 years' time, when the rust gets through the sides.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Mr. Wright, do you want to weigh in on this as well?

9:20 a.m.

Operations Manager, Operational Response Readiness, Western Canada Marine Response Corporation

Scott Wright

I can't say for certain whether the ship-source oil pollution fund would cover those incidents. I'm sorry, I don't have that knowledge.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

That's okay.

Time is of the essence as well then, Mr. O'Connor, is what you're saying in this particular—

9:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Maritime Law Association

John O'Connor

Of course it is. It always is of the essence.