Transport Committee on April 8th, 2014

[Jean Tierney]

—and we debrief the results together, everybody in the room.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Dias, you don't just represent VIA workers, but also workers in the CN and CP environment.

Have your members on the CN and CP side of it ever received any kind of survey, annual or otherwise, about how safe they feel in the environment?

[Jerry Dias]

Yes. We do the annual surveys, but we do it every day. The preoccupation of health and safety is something that's really driven. I'm in a joint program, but it's something that's discussed every single day with our shop stewards, with our union leadership, and with our membership. This isn't an issue that somehow takes a backseat to anything. I think VIA and our union will absolutely agree that when it comes to health and safety, there's a preoccupation and there's a hell of a lot of time spent dealing with it.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

You represent membership both on the passenger rail side and on the freight rail side.

[Jerry Dias]

Correct.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I want to come back to Dr. Fleming's measurement tool, if you will. It was used by the independent rail advisory panel in 2007, when they were measuring progress toward a safety culture. At that time, on a five-point scale—one being very prescriptive, rules-oriented, with adherence to rules, and a fully functional SMS safety culture, being number five—they had CN ranked at one, CP at two, and VIA at four out of five. The regulator, Transport Canada, incidentally, was a three out of five.

In your experience, what are the differences with respect to the freight rail side that you deal with, and VIA? You give us a window into that on their safety culture, and if you don't mind keeping it reasonably brief, I do have another follow-up question.

[Brian Stevens]

All right, just quickly, then.

CN and CP, in our view, have flipped. CP has taken a step back; they're one. CN has advanced to two. TC is still at three, and VIA is at four, and improving.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Okay.

Dr. Fleming, earlier when questioned you said that leadership drives culture to a large degree. As a result of Bill S-4, and pending regulations, we'll have an executive who is accountable with respect to culture and who is appointed, and prevalent whistle-blower protection. The unions are structurally involved on the front end in a joint fashion about driving safety culture. Those are aspects that, in and of themselves, while they may represent accountability, don't necessarily drive safety culture, if I understand your presentation correctly. Is that also true? That's not to say we don't want to have them.

[Dr. Mark Fleming]

I think they can facilitate it, but having an accountable officer just means there's someone who is accountable. If they don't do a good pretty job of it, then it's going to make things worse, not better.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

On the exercise of this committee, if we're looking at further improvements, the improvements themselves don't necessarily.... Are there any that could further facilitate safety culture? Let me ask that question first.

Are we suggesting there may be some practical limits on the regulatory and SMS side of driving safety culture that we just have to understand as we go through this? What can help facilitate it?

[Dr. Mark Fleming]

What I recommend for organizations is that they adopt a systematic approach to safety culture improvement. It's a journey, not a destination. The idea, really, is that you continually work to improve that through self-reflection and criticism. I think that could be facilitated through external support and from a regulatory regime that recognizes that and encourages that sort of activity. Having an expectation that organizations are actively working toward promoting a positive safety culture, I think, is important. Doing surveys is helpful. Probably what's more important, from my perspective, is what changes are occurring for that. What have we learned? What are we doing differently? I think that's something—

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Does external criticism work? If so, how far should that extend? Should it just be the government? Should it be the public?

[Dr. Mark Fleming]

I think that getting external input is always helpful. Whether it's an external auditor or an external regulator, all of those things are helpful for organizations in terms of safety improvement. I think what's important, though, as well is that you have a well-resourced and well-educated regulator. I think that facilitates efficient and effective management of safety. A poorly educated regulator is not helpful for loads of reasons.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you very much.

We're nearing the end of the meeting, but we do have enough time for one from the NDP and the Liberal, and two here to even it out. This is just a forewarning that I have to cut everybody off at the five-minute mark, including questions. So try to use your time accordingly. Thank you.

Mr. Mai.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be very brief.

We mentioned that regulation is one step, but what we need to do is look at some of the factors, some of the issues, especially in terms of the technology. It's also something that will help.

But we have to look at the human factor. Two conductors, one conductor, I raise the issue. But now what we hear about is conductor fatigue. Can you tell us a bit about it? From your perspective, how important is that in terms of safety?

[Brian Stevens]

We're talking about fatigue management and there's a working group involved in that now. We're looking at the different sciences in terms of crew fatigue. I think what's important would be to have schedules as opposed to the system where the crews are on call and once they're on call, then they're available for duty.

I understand TCRC will be here in another week, so you'll get a little bit more information in terms of fatigue management. But it's critical to rail safety.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Do the representatives from VIA Rail want to say something about that?

[Denis Pinsonneault]

Indeed, all fatigue-related issues are important, not only as regards to the number of hours spent on board the locomotive, but also the working environment for these employees.

We work with the TCRC policy committees. We have regular meetings to examine these issues.

Unlike other industries, I think that the work schedule problem at VIA Rail has been resolved. We are now focusing on the working environment for these employees and not just on the number of hours they work.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

So I'll leave my time to Mr. Sullivan, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. Sullivan.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Thank you.

I really only have one question. CN, CP, MMA, and Transport Canada have refused to release the entirety of the safety management systems of those corporations on the basis they have some kind of corporate competitive advantage to keep them private and secret. That's not the case with VIA Rail. So can we see your safety management systems?

[Steve Del Bosco]

Certainly, we don't have any objection to showing them.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Thank you, and will you table it as part of this?

[Steve Del Bosco]

Sure.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

That'd be great.