Transport Committee on May 6th, 2014

[Fiona Cook]

Mr. McGuinty, I can say yes. I think we need to differentiate between sectors. You're talking about the petroleum sector. We're chemical manufacturers. A lot of our products are quite uniform and need to satisfy customer requirements as well. Regular testing is going on, and we ensure that we classify our products as per TDG regulations. We supported the new regulations on classification that were gazetted early this year.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Let's go back to my earlier comments in the last round, just quickly, because I have about a minute left.

Let's just say that the SMS is an agreement between industry and government. For Canadians watching and listening that's what it is. We agree we're going to have a joint approach to safety, right? Responsible care is one manifestation of it and there are others. Different companies have different approaches but it does require that the regulator, Transport Canada, with ultimate responsibility for safety, has the resources it needs to do its job. Would we all agree with that?

Can you tell us from your perspective, based on what you're hearing from your members right across your sectors, does Transport Canada have the resources it needs to do its job right now?

[Jim Bird]

No. For example, when it comes to ERAPs and the processing of ERAPs, and now there will be additional ERAPs required under the directive, there already was a holdup on getting ERAPs processed and now there's going to be a burden of many new ERAPs so—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

A big backlog....

[Jim Bird]

Yes.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Larson.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Hoang Mai]

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty.

Are there any last comments from other witnesses?

[Roger Larson]

CFI has not done an assessment of Transport Canada so I'll have to get back to you on that.

Yes, our products do meet the classification.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Hoang Mai]

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty.

Mr. Watson, you have five minutes.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, again, Mr. Vice-Chair.

It might be instructive in light of Mr. McGuinty's lines of questioning to have at some point Transport Canada, perhaps before the summer, appear and update us on their action plan in response to the Auditor General's reports. At public accounts last week we had some considerable update on a number of the recommendations that are partly or fully fulfilled. They made very detailed commitments both in the Auditor General's report and in their action plan follow-up. It may be good for the committee to hear that and get a sense of the progress and/or any lack of progress by Transport officials in meeting their stated targets.

Back to our witnesses though for a moment.

Mr. Larson, just getting a sense on the shape and scope of TDG shipments your member companies would make, do your members ship unit trains of compressed ammonia? How many cars would be in such a train? We hear about the big trains for crude but let's talk about your particular sector.

[Roger Larson]

No, we don't ship unit trains of ammonia. We actually did a study on this and the maximum number of railcars of ammonia that we would typically have in a train is 36. The average number is 12 cars. The average distance is 525 miles.

As a point of interest, less than 1.1% of our total domestic and export rail shipments go on short lines.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Bird, do your members move unit trains of dangerous goods regularly? Are we likely to see a 50-car train of sulphuric acid or ethanol through populated or non-populated areas of the country?

[Jim Bird]

No. That's not a scale that we operate on.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Cove, I want to go back to transloading facilities for a moment.

Are there any circumstances under which a transload facility might fall under a municipal jurisdiction in terms of its location? Do municipalities have any say in where a transfer site can or cannot be located?

[Marty Cove]

I think municipalities do have a say in that. I'm not an expert in that area so I can't answer your question specifically. Certainly, we have a very proactive consultation process so we believe the communities do have a say in it.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

They have a say but they can't necessarily zone you out of their community, for example.

[Marty Cove]

They may be able to do that. It depends on the council.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Regarding provincial regulations, is there a lot of variability from province to province for transload facilities in terms of the requirements they have to meet?

[Marty Cove]

Again, I'm not an expert in that area. My expertise is logistics.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Okay. Very good, then.

You do transload crude. One of the areas under consideration is the variability of product. With respect to classification, should all crude oil be classified as the same product or should there be some distinction, say, with Bakken crude, which has a different volatility? As Alberta has diluted bitumen, for example, should there be some differentiation in the classification that way?

[Marty Cove]

Well, I've seen the Bakken crude. I've toured a couple of the transload facilities in the Bakken, and that is a greenish, very light, very viscous product, whereas the product we're moving is almost like road tar. It definitely has very different properties.

I'm not a chemist, so I won't go beyond that.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Okay. So I'll continue to grapple with that particular question, then.

I don't know if I have any further questions, so I'll end my round.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Hoang Mai]

Thank you, Mr. Watson.

Mr. Komarnicki, you have five minutes.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you for that, Chair.

I have a couple of questions regarding safety management systems. I know you were saying you had some outreach programs for first responders, and you weren't exactly responsible for what the railway does. Your reach might go that far but it's not your primary responsibility. But for the areas that you are primarily concerned, before it gets to the rail company, how many employees might there be involved? You are responsible for safety management systems in that regard, would you agree?

[Marty Cove]

Yes, we're definitely responsible for everything that happens up to the point where we release the cars.