Transport Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2014

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

We were having a fascinating discussion, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

We'll now move to Mr. Yurdiga for five minutes.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I'd like to thank the witnesses for participating today. This is very important. It's about our environment. It's about our future, so thank you very much.

My first question is for Mr. Lowry.

There's a significant interest from industry and government in expanding beyond our traditional North American energy markets into Asia. In your view, with the potential increased intensity of ship traffic, is the current emergency response capacity sufficient to handle an increase in the shipping density? If not, what plans or discussions have taken place to address this potential increase in traffic?

[Michael Lowry]

It's a good question.

Prior to the tanker safety panel review, the regime had not changed in several decades. There was a requirement for change, which is why we had moved past the 10,000-tonne capacity requirement. What we wanted to see happen was a move to a risk-based system where, as opposed to a one-size-fits-all package, you're looking at specific areas where the highest risk is and then developing response strategies for that particular area. That's what we've seen in the recommendations that have come out of the panel report, and we're very supportive of those. Those would be able to be scaled based on how much oil is coming out of the province. You would be able to look at the risk for that particular area and then develop response strategies based on that risk.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Lowry, in the event of a spill, your organization is contacted by a response party to clean up this spill on their behalf. Who monitors the response operation and takes command if the polluter is unable or unwilling to respond?

[Michael Lowry]

That is the Canadian Coast Guard federal monitoring officer. They are on scene. If they don't believe that the cleanup is being handled properly by the responsible party, they do have the authority to take command.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Zatylny.

Last week we met with the Shipping Federation of Canada. In their follow-up answer they described the amount of shipping growth in Canada. Their assessment was that the ship traffic growth was somewhat flat due to the larger ships being used, but the tonnage has been increasing over the years.

Does the increased size of the average vessel coming into Canadian harbours increase risk? If so, what have you done to address this issue?

[Wendy Zatylny]

Certainly there's no doubt that the boats are getting a lot bigger and they're putting a lot more demands on the port authorities and all the associated partners to try to address them.

Most of the impact has been primarily on the infrastructure side in terms of requiring bigger berth spots, a lot deeper draft, as well as simply the off-loading capabilities. When you have a 6,000-TEU vessel coming in, the various modes are set up to handle that, whereas if you have one coming in that is a 10,000 TEU or a 12,000 TEU, it puts a lot of extra strain on the port and its ability to handle the cargo. From the port authorities' perspective, that has been the larger impact of these larger vessels.

In terms of safety and security, the planning that is done by the port authorities is meant to take that into account when they do the assessment as to whether they can bring the vessels in.

[Capt Yoss Leclerc]

If I could add something, as you know, when there is a project where it's something new, as in a bigger ship or a new terminal, today a technology that is very robust—and I have gone through it in the Second Narrows MRA—is the simulators that the pilot uses doing the project. They are going to simulate the whole passage of a vessel with the size of the vessel. It's a real-time exercise with the tugs attached. They put wind, waves, and all the environmental effects for the worst-case scenario, and the pilots go through the simulation and get to the result: is it feasible or not feasible? The recommendation comes from there.

It's not only that. Even if the simulation said that it was feasible, there is also a training process. For the pilots, there is a pilot project where if it's a new terminal they're going to bring a smaller ship, they will do some voyages, and a report will be done by the pilots for every coming and leaving. Little by little they're going to get to where they need to go. They just don't wake up in the morning and say they're going to do it. It's a very thorough process. For the Second Narrows MRA, it was a two-year simulation, training, and trial, before having the first vessel moving in.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Okay, thank you.

What power does the port authority have to make rules and regulations for the harbour, and what kind of enforcement power do you have to ensure they abide by the rules?

[Capt Yoss Leclerc]

I said previously there is the Canada Marine Act, which through the port operation regulations mandates power to the port authorities to put procedures and standards in place. Every port is different. Depending on the port, some ports would work with Transport Canada or other agencies, and other ports have their own resources. If we take the example of Port Metro Vancouver, they have officers on the water who will go onto the ship and do the work. But the other ports have the same reach. They will enact the regulation. They will meet all the ship agents. They will inform the Canadian Coast Guard, and through the Canadian Coast Guard they will inform that the pilot is on board. They know the regulations. The only entity that can allow a vessel to come in or out of the port authority is the port. Before getting to the port, if at any moment the port considers it's unsafe or there is non-compliance, the ship is not allowed to come into or leave the port. This is the power of the port authority.

Again, if I talk about the port of Quebec—and this is another question I've had several times—ships come in and out and no one knows. Ninety-six hours before a ship even loads in a foreign country, full information is provided to Canadian customs. This information is provided to other stakeholders. Twenty-four hours before ships come into Canadian waters, security information goes to other agencies, like Transport Canada and the RCMP. Then, by the time the vessel comes into Canadian waters, if there were any concerns, any questions, they would take care of the vessel, put the vessel somewhere safe, and assess and evaluate before letting the ship come in.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Mr. Mai, you have five minutes.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Leclerc, as you must know, my colleagues from Beauport—Limoilou and Quebec City are very concerned about the activities carried out by the Port of Québec, specifically those involving nickel. We will not necessarily talk about those activities here, but there is still something I would like to know on the issue.

You clearly told the committee that, when your capacity or your activities go up, the environmental aspect is important for you. I think that is indeed the case and you pay attention to the environmental impact that your activities may have.

However, would it be possible to make those activities public? As you know, the public is very concerned and has a number of questions about that. We are told that port authorities, particularly those in Quebec, are not being transparent. Could you elaborate on that?

[Capt Yoss Leclerc]

I'm going to do it in English, or half in French, and half in English. Okay?

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, I think this gets into a peripheral issue and not the question of safety management or transportation of dangerous goods and the role of the ports with respect to that. I think this touches on some of the other issues he said he wouldn't get into today. I think it's the thin edge of the wedge, Mr. Chair.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

On that point of order, Chair, I don't know if Mr. Watson listened to what the witness said when he talked about those issues. I'm asking questions on issues the witness has talked about.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

He was referring to the transportation of dangerous goods.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

In this case we're also talking about transportation of dangerous goods, which goes—

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

As long as the question is about that, then—

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Yes. It is part of what ports have to deal with, transportation of dangerous goods. That's the question. Are those assessments being made public?

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

If I might, Chair, as that may relate to the transportation of dangerous goods, that may be a fair question, but as it relates to tenants on property or other potential issues, beluga whales or something, that's not a relevant issue.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Well, I think the witness, Mr. Leclerc, actually spoke about this. I didn't hear Mr. Watson raise a point of order when the witness actually spoke about it. I'm just asking questions on the witness testimony.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Carry on, and I'll watch for it.

[Capt Yoss Leclerc]

When people ask me what I do, what my job is, it is very easy. It's safety, security, and environmental protection. This is 24-7 all year round.

The environment is very important. The environment is important, and we talked about it from a reputational perspective, from a community perspective, and also even from an organizational perspective. We have team members who work in the environment department who are as concerned as the rest of the employees about port activities and their impact.

Throughout the years, and we can talk about all Canadian port authorities, several if not thousands of millions of dollars have been put in to improve the way everyone operates. It's been like that for years and years, getting technology in place, putting resources in place to again mitigate the impact on the surrounding communities, and to do better environmentally.

A lot of ports have been engaged with communities. You heard about the initiative around liaison committees with neighbourhoods, communities surrounding the ports in Vancouver, Halifax, the port of Quebec, and port of Montreal talking about transparency. They are engaged. They are meeting with people and communities and they are working to try to enhance the situation.