Evidence of meeting #9 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was business.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Deepak Chopra  President and Chief Executive Officer, Head Office, Canada Post
David Stewart-Patterson  Vice-President, Public Policy, Conference Board of Canada
Denis Lemelin  National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
John Anderson  Research Associate, National Office, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Robert Campbell  President and Vice-Chancellor, Mount Allison University, As an Individual
Bob Brown  Member, Transportation Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities
Roy Hanes  Member, Social Policy Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities
Benjamin Dachis  Senior Policy Analyst, C.D. Howe Institute
Daniel Kelly  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

3:35 p.m.

Member, Transportation Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Bob Brown

In my opinion there are other problems with the community mailboxes for persons with disabilities anyway. There is the question of ergonomics, the height of the top row of a community mailbox, which they might have to reach. There is the issue of inclement weather. I'm of the opinion that reducing delivery or pushing people further into using community mailboxes does reduce the standard that we have now.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

My son lives in Edmonton and has a community mailbox across the street, but it is across the street, and they don't plough the street, and nobody shovels the snow around the community mailbox. It's not surprising then that no one with a wheelchair or mobility aid lives in that neighbourhood, because they couldn't do it.

3:35 p.m.

Member, Social Policy Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Roy Hanes

I'd just like to make a comment about the cost not only to the person with disabilities. We certainly feel that is really important, but we often forget about the parent of a child who is at home with significant impairments, and what happens if the mother or father has to make arrangements to go down the street to get that child or to get that child dressed and put into a wheelchair to get the mail. On a day like today I think those are some of the issues.

One of the things Bob and I are aware of in the disability community is that if there is going to be a system that designates whether mail delivery is to these communal boxes or to a home specific to people with disabilities, often people with disabilities have to go about proving their impairment to authorities. That will add an extra cost somewhere along the line. It could include a cost to health care, because as Bob well knows, even to get a bus pass you have to see a doctor to confirm that you are disabled. I work at a university and the students with disabilities often have to see physicians to get letters of permission to do this, that, and the next thing. So there are a lot of extra hidden costs besides the human cost.

Your point is well taken about the lack of accessibility. We're very concerned that it will not only cause further exclusion—Bob and I have been thinking about this and doing this for over 30 years—but that any step to minimize inclusion will also create a barrier.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

And would be in violation of Canada's undertaking to the UN.

3:35 p.m.

Member, Social Policy Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Roy Hanes

That would be true.

3:35 p.m.

Member, Transportation Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Bob Brown

If I may say, just for example, four times last week—with all due respect to Ottawa, which is the national capital—I got stuck on the sidewalks in the city, not even able to get down off the sidewalk, and once yesterday.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

So getting to a community mailbox is—

3:35 p.m.

Member, Transportation Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Bob Brown

They're not shovelled out, as you say.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

No, they're not.

3:35 p.m.

Member, Transportation Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Bob Brown

There are inherent problems just with the concept of moving to the community mailbox.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

You'd think after 30 years of having them in place Canada Post would have worked out these things, but they haven't.

3:35 p.m.

Member, Transportation Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Bob Brown

The ergonomics of the boxes, too....

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Part of the reason they don't have to is because persons with disabilities can live in areas where there is still door-to-door delivery, or they can live in an apartment building where there is still door-to-door delivery in the lobby.

3:35 p.m.

Member, Transportation Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Bob Brown

People tend to change because of services and things like that. They tend to move from the country, or places where there aren't the services for assistance and services that are necessary to survive. That's why they tend to move to the cities.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

The other issue is that persons with disabilities tend not to have a lot of money and so therefore don't have access to other mechanisms for communicating. So they are reliant on the mail in a larger measure than other segments of the population. What will the price hikes do?

3:35 p.m.

Member, Transportation Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Bob Brown

That was one of our main concerns. The rate increases, especially for non-profit organizations, persons living on a low income, are going to inflict a real hit. It's not just a few dollars for small business, but people still have to pay their bills. A $1 stamp is fairly significant for a lot of people.

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

When you're on a fixed income from a social service system there isn't a lot of disposable income.

3:40 p.m.

Member, Social Policy Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Roy Hanes

No and I don't think they'll be including more money for postal stamps and whatnot either.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Nor for Internet access or any other thing. The other thing that Canada Post does, and we're hearing a lot from organizations about privatization, is that they deliver to the blind. Would a privatized organization be able to do that as efficiently, or as well, as Canada Post?

3:40 p.m.

Member, Transportation Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Bob Brown

Good question.

3:40 p.m.

Member, Social Policy Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Roy Hanes

Our estimate is probably not. One of the other things you're hitting on too, and one of our concerns, has to do also with the numbers of persons with disabilities living in urban areas who often find themselves living in low-income areas, and often vulnerable to violence and crime. That would be a concern of ours too, particularly if they had to pick up whatever at a communal box during the day or evening; that may open them up to some violence, or make them more accessible to that. So that's also a concern of ours as well.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

The boxes themselves aren't lit are they?

3:40 p.m.

Member, Social Policy Committee, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Roy Hanes

Not that we're aware of.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

You're right, if it's at night, or in the winter time after 4 o'clock it's dark and persons are more vulnerable.

I'm going to switch gears just a little bit.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Very briefly.