Evidence of meeting #110 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wheelchair.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michelle Hewitt  Chair, Disability Without Poverty
Gabriel Reznick  Staff Lawyer, ARCH Disability Law Centre
Max Brault  Senior Consultant, As an Individual
Robert Fenton  Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Maayan Ziv  Chief Executive Officer, AccessNow
Paul Lupien  Chair, Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 110 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, November 20, 2023, the committee is meeting to study accessible transportation for persons with disabilities.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, and therefore members may attend in person in the room or remotely using the Zoom application.

Although this room is equipped with a sophisticated audio system, feedback events can occur and can be extremely harmful to interpreters, causing serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to a microphone. I therefore ask all participants to exercise a high degree of caution when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's is turned on. In order to prevent incidents and safeguard the hearing health of our interpreters, I invite participants to ensure that they speak into the microphone that is plugged into their headset and to avoid manipulating the earbuds by placing them on the table away from the microphone when they are not in use.

Colleagues, for the first hour of today's meeting, we have appearing before us as witnesses, from ARCH Disability Law Centre, Mr. Gabriel Reznick, staff lawyer, by video conference.

Welcome to you, sir.

From Disability Without Poverty, we have Ms. Michelle Hewitt, chair.

Welcome to you.

As an individual appearing before us, we have Mr. Max Brault, senior consultant.

Welcome to you, sir.

We're going to begin our opening remarks.

For that, I will turn the floor over to you, Ms. Hewitt. You have five minutes, please.

11:05 a.m.

Michelle Hewitt Chair, Disability Without Poverty

Thank you for inviting me to speak today. As said, my name is Michelle Hewitt. I live in Kelowna, B.C. I am the chair of Disability Without Poverty, a national charity.

I have had the privilege to fly on a number of occasions. It is always extremely stressful and usually results in some damage somewhere to my wheelchair. I could give you a laundry list of things that have happened, but I'll concentrate on one major event.

In October 2013, I was flying with my daughter—she's here with me today as my assistant—and our family to meet up in Florida with my parents flying in from England to celebrate my mother's 70th birthday. After everyone had boarded the plane in Vancouver, there seemed to be a delay. The reason was that my wheelchair had been destroyed. It had been put in a freight elevator with the door left open. The chair had been left with no brakes on. Once the elevator began to move, the chair, weighing 350 pounds, fell from 20 feet to the tarmac below. It could have caused major injury or killed somebody. Luckily, it didn't.

It's hard to describe the shock and panic I felt, even though I remember it vividly. I felt trapped. I was stuck on an airplane not knowing what I would do on the other end, my mobility gone. Everybody else would walk off to continue their day. Initially, I was given a manual wheelchair in Florida, which meant I needed someone to push me. After a few more days, a power wheelchair was found, but it was too small for me. I spent most of the holiday in bed. To this day, I have chronic hip pain from the injury caused from spending two weeks in a chair that did not fit.

When I got home, I continued to spend days in bed recovering. While another rental power chair was sourced that fit better, it didn't work particularly well, so I couldn't trust it outside the home.

Six weeks later, my father died in Oakville, Ontario. I couldn't go to his funeral. I was still in acute pain and had acute fatigue. I didn't have a wheelchair that I could travel with. Even if I could make it past those two obstacles, I couldn't face getting on a plane again so soon after losing my chair.

In total, it would be three months before I received a new wheelchair that fit me and worked. I cannot fault the customer service I received from WestJet in replacing my chair, but it simply takes that long to get a custom wheelchair that cost, at that time, $25,000.

That one small action of not securing my chair in that elevator cost me my dignity and independence for months and shook my confidence. It stopped me from attending my father's funeral and still causes me physical pain now.

Incredibly, it almost happened again on this journey. Time permitting, I'll tell you some more about that later.

Flying has so many risks to us. When a piece of equipment that a disabled person relies on is damaged, it's not like a suitcase being lost. It's an intrinsic part of who we are that's crucial to how we function. Being delayed might mean the medications or the meals we planned now don't work out, or mean a layover in a hotel room not equipped for us. Disabled people are 27% of the Canadian population, but I doubt we make up 27% of the people who fly.

I made a note to myself—I wrote this before I left home—to say that I travelled here with Leo, my service dog. It's his first time flying. Perhaps you could ask him how that went. We can talk about that as well.

I see that in the U.S., crucial work is being done to consider how wheelchairs can be brought onto planes. I think this is crucial. We have seating configurations in our wheelchairs that are purpose-designed for us, but on planes we have to leave them to go in with the luggage. I'm limited on how long I can fly by how long I can sit in a plane seat, when a seat that works perfectly well is elsewhere on the plane.

My chair was destroyed 10 years ago, and I see that little has changed. The stories in the news recently are just the ones that reached the media—mine never did, for example—and I'm sure there are many more.

I'll leave you with one all-encompassing recommendation—namely, that airlines provide an experience for disabled people that is safe and treats us with dignity and respect, where we can expect to get to the end of the flight with our equipment and our bodies in the same condition as when we departed, and that is, simply put, an equitable experience to the one everyone else has.

Thank you very much for your time today.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Ms. Hewitt. Let me welcome Leo on behalf of all members of the committee.

Mr. Reznick, the floor is now yours. You have five minutes for your opening remarks, sir.

11:10 a.m.

Gabriel Reznick Staff Lawyer, ARCH Disability Law Centre

Thank you.

My name is Gabriel Reznick. I am here on behalf of ARCH Disability Law Centre, along with my colleague, Ilinca Stefan.

ARCH is a specialty legal clinic clinic that practices exclusively in disability rights law. ARCH has made multiple submissions related to the accessibility of airlines; the Accessible Canada Act, the ACA; and the Accessible Transportation for Persons with Disabilities Regulations, the ATPDR.

Accessible transportation is a human right held by all, and it is essential for realizing full and equal participation of persons with disabilities in Canada.

The purpose of the ATPDR is to provide technical requirements that support the full inclusion and equality rights of persons with disabilities in accessing transportation, a purpose that is in line with the ACA. It is essential that this committee reflect on this purpose when drafting your report.

ARCH provides legal services to persons with disabilities who face barriers with air travel. Currently, ARCH is representing Tim Rose in his case against Air Canada, which is at the Federal Court of Appeal.

Since we are actually litigating this case, we cannot talk about it other than in a general manner. In this case we are defending the Canadian Transportation Agency, the CTA's decision, which ordered systemic remedies to make air travel more accessible for persons using mobility devices. We are happy to provide a copy of the CTA's decisions to the clerk following our submission.

In addition to Mr. Rose's case, we have been contacted by many persons with disabilities who face barriers when accessing transportation from a variety of airlines. We have also received consistent feedback from the disability communities in Ontario and across Canada about these barriers. Our following submissions are based on these cases, as well our institutional knowledge in this area.

I'll raise two main points today.

Firstly, through our work ARCH has learned that airlines are using the ATPDR to minimize their legal obligations to accommodate persons with disabilities, which is the complete antithesis to the purpose of the ACA and the ATPDR. ARCH has consistently raised this concern ever since the development of the ATPDR.

Airlines must be reminded that the duty to accommodate, under the Canadian Human Rights Act, applies equally to them as to other service providers.

Under the ATPDR, section 2 states that regulations have no effect on existing legal obligations, including the “duty to accommodate under the Canadian Human Rights Act”. In addition section 2.1 of the ATPDR states that the “Regulations are to be interpreted as requiring that persons with disabilities be treated with dignity.”

This committee should recommend that the Government of Canada and the CTA reaffirm the ATPDR's clear direction that airlines must comply with accessibility regulations, and in doing so confirm that persons with disabilities have the right to be accommodated on an individual basis and with dignity, ensuring equal access to transportation.

Now, I will go to my second point. As was just well described, accessible transportation is essential for persons with disabilities in Canada. Airlines and airplane manufacturers must implement a plan for universal design, including in procurement, in order to eliminate barriers that continue to exist in every facet of air travel. There is a need for airlines and aircraft manufacturers to investigate possible modifications to aircraft and airline equipment to allow for fully accessible air travel.

Common accessibility issues that we know of include being separated from a mobility device during travel, which may lead to damage to their device; airlines not accepting mobility devices on cargo space, which often leads to not being able to travel whatsoever; inaccessible washrooms; and inaccessible on-plane entertainment systems, call buttons and announcements.

We recommend that this committee and Parliament urge airlines to proactively procure devices that are accessible, and work to modify existing devices to ensure accessibility.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you. I'll be happy to answer any of your questions.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Mr. Reznick.

Finally, for opening remarks, we have Mr. Brault.

Mr. Brault, the floor is yours for five minutes, please.

11:15 a.m.

Max Brault Senior Consultant, As an Individual

As was stated, my name is Max Brault. I'm a senior consultant at BDO Canada, but I'm not here for my corporate responsibility; I'm here as an individual, and I want to make sure that's clear on the record.

As most of you probably have read about my harrowing trip to Hawaii, what you don't know is that prior to COVID, I used to travel all the time. I used to travel through VIA, through airlines, you name it, but I never complained. I'm here today to talk about two really big things.

First of all, I want to address one thing. There is a myth right now that what you're hearing in the newspapers and what you're hearing in general on the Internet is a one-off. The airlines are giving you a false impression.

When I've experienced travel, I would say that about 40% of the time I experienced issues from lost to damaged wheelchairs, you name it, but I never had an issue until I flew to Hawaii. The singular reason Hawaii was a different trip is that my wife got to experience it, and it made my wife cry. She's in this room today, and I made a vow to make sure that the airlines paid for that particular situation, because they turned her experience from what should have been a great family event into a nightmare.

I really want to touch on the simple fact that what you're hearing is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to people with disabilities travelling. Time and time again, if you were to go into airports, you would see on a frequent basis individuals and families with disabilities encountering issues with the airports and travelling because of various things like their equipment and how they're going to deal with their children or themselves when there are diverse issues.

One thing that is really important is that I can't sit here and tell this committee that x number of people are experiencing x number of issues due to X. Do you know why? It's because we do not as a country calculate this information. We don't tabulate it, and we don't circulate this information around. I could tell you, from where I come from, I have a great number of really smart, analytical people who would love 18 months of getting this information and coming back and telling you what that looks like, but I don't have the ability to do so. However, there is something of a silver lining down the road.

Before COVID, Disney used to say all the time—and, by the way, Disney give me call me to tell me what the new numbers are—that 25 million Americans used to make a decision based on a member of their family having a disability. Since we are a population of about one-tenth of the size, I would assume that anywhere between 2.5 to 5 million Canadian families are making that same decision. Do the math, folks.

What a colleague of mine recently told me is a great analogy. The analogy I'm going to use here is that if the banking industry were to say to this committee, “Look, we deal with $2-trillion worth of funds annually, but you know what, if I'm missing about $200 million, so what? The interest rate will hide that”. That's what it sounds like to my community. The things that are happening to my community are a crisis. If this was a banking situation, everybody here who's listening to me would go, “Oh, wow, we need to have hearings and find out what's happening to that money”.

The first recommendation I would make is that the CTA should have the power and the strength to collect the data about what is going on and to make that information public on an annual basis.

My second recommendation is a little bit off, but think of this—and you've already heard it from two individuals today—I am an individual. As you can see, I've come in an electric wheelchair.

By the way, I would like to introduce you to Roxanne. This is what I call my wheelchair, “Roxanne”. I'll tell you why I call her by name. I never lose sight of her. I'm either sitting in her, or she's in my sight 99% of the time. Even when I go to bed, I have a straight view of my wheelchair being charged. I know where she is all the time. The only few times that I let her go is when I travel with the airlines. When I give my wheelchair to somebody, I expect to see Roxanne at the other side of the road.

For that reason alone, here's my second recommendation. The human rights that I have as an individual need to to be given to my wheelchair, which means that when my wheelchair is damaged—if any accessible equipment is damaged—it is inherently a human rights issue.

For this reason alone, airlines and the travel industry need to recognize the fact that when I give what is essentially my legs to them, they have to respect it the same way as they would a human body, a person. If I gave my kids to the airlines and said, “Can you make sure that they get from point A to point B safely?”, they'd do everything in their power to make sure that those children get there safely. I ask for the same kind of consideration for my wheelchair. Anybody in my community is asking for the same kind of consideration for their equipment—that it has the same human rights that I have the privilege to have.

My last recommendation.... The gentleman who was speaking before me was touching upon this. The reality is that the airlines and the travel industry are not taking their time to talk to us as a community. I can tell you right now that if they were starting to talk to the people who design wheelchairs and design equipment, then we could design better wheelchairs and better equipment that could work with the airline industry. That kind of communication needs to start happening. We need to start training the people who disassemble and reassemble my wheelchair to understand how to do it right because I can't do it.

Look, I'm a policy guy. I'm like you guys. I read things, and I tell you what you need to do. However, once I'm in a third-world nation and my wheelchair shows up in many different pieces, I have no clue how to rebuild it. Neither does my wife—and my wife knows many other things.

Thank you for the time. I'm here to answer any of your questions.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Mr. Brault. I'm sure you'll be able to expand on that with the lines of questioning that our members will have for you.

I'd like to ask for the consent of the members to combine all of our witnesses into one large block of two hours as opposed to splitting them into two. The reason for that is that some of the witnesses in the second hour have informed us that they will no longer be able to make it for the second half.

Do I have unanimous consent to do that?

11:20 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Okay, with that, I will turn the floor over to Mr. Fenton from the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, who is joining us by video conference.

Sir, I'll turn the floor over to you. You have five minutes for your opening remarks, please.

11:20 a.m.

Robert Fenton Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Thank you very much, sir. Hopefully you can hear me okay. I'm sorry for the technical problems that we had this morning.

My name is Robert Fenton. Professionally, I'm the director of legal services at the Calgary Police Service. In my volunteer life, I am the chair of the CNIB's national board of directors.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Mr. Fenton, I sincerely apologize. I don't mean to cut you off, but your camera is not open. If you could turn it on, please, so that members can see you....

11:25 a.m.

Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Robert Fenton

Okay. I'm sorry. There was a pop-up that I didn't see.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you, sir. I'll restart your clock so that you can restart your opening remarks.

11:25 a.m.

Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Robert Fenton

Can you see me now?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

We can't. We can see the reverse. I think your camera is on front-facing, sir. You'll want to turn it around so that we can see you, if that's possible.

11:25 a.m.

Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Robert Fenton

Okay, I don't know which camera I have running here. Let me just do this.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Scot Davidson Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Put a mirror there.

11:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:25 a.m.

Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Robert Fenton

Do you see me now?

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

We do not. Let me just quickly confer with the clerk.

11:25 a.m.

Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind

Robert Fenton

This should be working. This has worked for every other Zoom call except for you guys.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Mr. Bachrach.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I wonder if you might ask for unanimous consent to hear the testimony without the front-facing camera.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Do I have unanimous consent to hear the testimony?

11:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.