Evidence of meeting #110 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wheelchair.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Reznick.
We have Mr. Strahl up next, followed by Ms. Koutrakis, and then we have another 20 minutes, for a total of 30 minutes.
I just want to ask if any of our witnesses need a break. If there are any witnesses who require a five-minute break, we can do that and suspend for five minutes.
I'm looking at our witnesses online. I don't see anyone saying yes. Okay. We'll continue on.
Mr. Strahl, I'll turn to floor over to you, sir. You have five minutes.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Ziv, you brought something up at the very tail end of one of your responses. You talked about how certain airlines are able to move horses or livestock and that sort of thing in a safe and reliable manner. You can imagine the international outrage or the justifiable hand-wringing that would happen should a horse not survive an international flight, yet we heard from both you and Ms. Hewitt about how the damage to your personalized mobility equipment worsened your physical and mental health for years and years and years.
These incidents, again, are not a case of, “Well, that wasn't a good travel experience.” They're a case of, “This has negatively impacted my life for the foreseeable future.” Maybe you can expand on that.
We also heard the suggestion that we should treat equipment like minor children, so there would a dedicated person who is responsible for that equipment.
I hope you get what I'm trying to get at.
Very practically, what needs to change for you to be assured that your equipment, which is life-giving and necessary to protect your physical and mental health, is given the correct standing by the airlines? What would it take for you to have that level of safety?
What needs to change specifically? What can we recommend that the government either request or compel the airlines to do to make that safe for you?
12:30 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, AccessNow
The current reality is that airlines all over the world have violated the trust of disabled passengers, because we don't have the safety, the security or the confidence to know that our mobility devices will be intact and able to be used. The reality is that the aftermath of that is absolutely treating it like a luggage claim. It is absolutely treated by the airlines in such a way that the best we might get is they'll pay for it—it being the device—which takes lengthy negotiations and documentation, and working with vendors.
In the first incident when my wheelchair was broken, the airline negotiated with me about which wheelchair would be more cost-effective for it to replace it with. They didn't understand that down to the millimetre, my customized wheelchair empowers me to reach further, that it empowers the ability for me to use the muscles in my arm on a day-to-day basis, and that when I don't do that, those muscles atrophy. That's a permanent reality for me. That is personal to my condition.
Every person's disability is different, and the reliance they have on their mobility devices is different, but we need to operate on the fact that when a person is forced out of or separated from their device, there are dire consequences that are not documented or understood by the airlines or by the air travel industry today at all. It's not as simple as simply paying for the damage. What about the cost to our health and the lost time?
I'd say it starts with redefining and understanding the problem, which is what this study is doing, but then creating mechanisms that don't leave it to the goodwill of a kind person at an airline to decide how to handle the case. We need standardization.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Have you seen cases or done research about other jurisdictions? We heard about the amount of money the airlines make vis-à-vis the fines they receive when a piece of mobility equipment is destroyed or not delivered, etc. Do you believe a significant increase in fines would change airline behaviour, or does it have to be more fundamental? A financial incentive or disincentive is helpful, but is that the solution? Is it more of a personal recognition of the damage they are doing to people, not only at the time of the incident but going forward?
Is it a financial shift or a cultural shift—or both?
12:30 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, AccessNow
I think it's both. I think money talks. Currently, the way the airlines handle this is that's the cost of doing business. The damage associated is currently less to handle than actually proactively solving the problem. I think if we were to increase the penalties associated with damaging mobility devices, we would see much more proactive involvement, because then it becomes a business decision. Right now it's not considered one, and it needs to be.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Strahl.
Ms. Koutrakis, the floor is yours for five minutes, please.
April 18th, 2024 / 12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To all our witnesses, thank you for your very compelling testimony before us today. I have to tell you that as a parliamentarian, I'm very privileged to be sitting around this table and participating in this very important study. I also have to tell you that I'm compelled to apologize to the entire community of persons with disabilities, because in many ways I feel that as an able-bodied person, I had turned a blind eye or wasn't sensitized to this information.
For me, it's been a great educational journey, learning from and listening to all of you. The time has come: As Canadians, we need to change this going forward. This is incredible testimony. We cannot have a country like Canada not doing better in that space. I think we all learned through the pandemic about the vulnerabilities. Many different areas had to be fixed in the transportation system. This is why in June 2023 the Minister of Transport at the time introduced Bill C-52. You may be familiar with it. It's the enhancing transparency and accountability in the transportation system act. The measures proposed in this legislation would create a more accountable, transparent, accessible national transportation system that meets the needs of Canadians—everything that we heard here, through you, today.
I'll ask only one question and give everyone the opportunity to once again stress, for this study and for everyone who is watching, if you had the ability to make any improvements to the overall experience of travelling with a disability, what you would recommend that the sector focus its efforts on. Obviously, a lot has to be done. What should we be focusing on to make it a better experience?
I'll start with Ms. Hewitt. Then I'll go to Mr. Brault and those who are joining us virtually. I'd like to hear from everyone, so if you could keep your answers short, perhaps we'll have a chance to hear from everybody.
Thank you.
12:35 p.m.
Chair, Disability Without Poverty
I would say that there are things that we've talked about today that will take time. In the short term, focus on education to create consistency. We have consistent safety announcements on every flight. We can all probably say them off by heart. We do not have a consistent experience when we go up to a check-in desk.
I will very quickly tell you about my flight this time. In Kelowna I was told that I couldn't take my chair on the plane. It was dangerous goods, because I couldn't remove the battery from it. That's just absolute hogwash. When I got to Calgary, where I switched planes, I was asked to drop my wheelchair at the elevator and then walk onto the plane—walk down that whole runway tunnel that you have to go through.
I think on the lack of consistency, what could be created by education could turn a lot of the issues—not all of them, but a lot of them—around in a pretty short time. We can do it for safety announcements. Let's do it for disabled people.
12:35 p.m.
Senior Consultant, As an Individual
There's a service now being offered by American Express in the United States for its members who are travelling with disabilities. American Express will actually provide an individual to meet you at the airport and follow you along your journey until you get onto the plane, and then there will be another representative on the other side, if that's the service in the States.
If you want one thing, I reiterate what Maayan Ziv said. If we are going to start collecting data and start providing the in-person service to help make sure we don't have to relitigate all the time, then there's one person whom it's helping—me and the people with me—to get to where they need to go.
12:40 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, AccessNow
I'd like to see co-creation with people with disabilities in every single policy, every decision, every training and every single thing that touches a disabled passenger's experience. We don't have the proper seats at the table. We—people with disabilities—are the experts on this issue, as you have heard in this study, yet we are not involved in the plans and decisions made. We are not sitting in the boardroom when the executives are looking at this issue. That's the biggest change. If we were there, we could ensure cohesion, we could ensure consistency and we could ensure representation. It's missing. It's lacking.
12:40 p.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
As a starting point, it is tiresome to have to prove over and over again that you have a disability, and to have to reapply every time for accommodation for each flight. We should develop an identifier number situation we can use at the check-in so that those of us with guide dogs, and people with other mobility aids, can check themselves in without having to go through a medical desk and spend an hour on hold waiting for help.
Every program, service or piece of equipment at the airport needs to be accessible to everyone with disabilities. All of us who are blind have had trouble with CBSA kiosks when trying to get our photos taken to prove our identity because we can't line them up. We have apps from the Canada Border Services Agency, that we have to use to take pictures of our passports, that are inaccessible, and there are various other things.
We need to have a group that looks at the travel experience from beginning to end, identifies the accessibility barriers and works with the airlines on the development of binding standards on the industry to break down these barriers.
The other piece is the CTA committees that talk about accessibility in transportation. CATSA needs to have the same thing for security. The differences in ability and training among the various contracting security agencies in the airports in this country are staggering, as are some of the questions we're asked as people with disabilities, like, “What do you need this piece of equipment for?” If they find a piece of equipment and they don't know what it is or how it works, they use that as an excuse to search you by hand, and, in my case, to ask me if I was carrying explosives. Other examples are, “Where do you work?” and, even better, “How much money do you make?”
This is our reality. These are the kinds of things that we, as people with disabilities, face.
Thank you.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Mr. Fenton.
Mr. Lupien, I see you've raised your hand. Would you like to add anything before I give the floor to another member of the committee?
12:40 p.m.
Chair, Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec
I'd like to say something quickly. Disabled people's organizations are in a position to help with training and provide adequate training. We should be consulted, first of all.
Let's not forget one thing, either. If I go to Cuba, for example, and the wheels on my wheelchair are broken, my vacation is ruined, not just my wheelchair. That's it, I won't be able to enjoy my vacation. I'll be offered a refund for my wheelchair, but why won't I be offered any compensation for my ruined vacation?
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much.
Our final round will be a little bit rapid-fire. I'll give everyone three minutes so we can get through it.
Mr. Muys, I'll turn the floor over to you for three minutes, please.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Muys Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
We've heard from you and from others, so obviously these are not just the one-off incidents that are reported in the media.
Mr. Brault, I think you said you had an issue 40% of the time. This is far more prevalent than we realized.
I forget who raised the impact of travel delays. It's one thing to have a travel experience end to end where everything runs on time, but we know that travel delays are unfortunately increasing, unfortunately. There have been more and more delays in Canadian air travel.
What's the impact of those, and what could be done to help mitigate them when you're faced with this situation?
12:40 p.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Can I speak to this?
12:40 p.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Travel delays are quite profound for people who are blind, especially when there isn't someone available to take us to a new gate where the new aircraft may be leaving from.
Other times, when the delay is longer, we have to take our dog out again. We always have to go back in some airports still through security. If your flight is to the U.S., you then have to reclear customs again.
There are considerable barriers in certain circumstances. While some airports now have dog relief areas in them that mitigate against some of these problems, not all do. That is something that should be taken into account for dealing with people with travel delays, that we have access to all the services that we need during the delay.
12:45 p.m.
Chair, Disability Without Poverty
If a flight is delayed to the extent that we have to have an additional layover, first of all, the impact on our bodies is massive because we weren't prepared for that. We may be going to a hotel room where we can't get into the bed and that sort of thing—if we get to a hotel room. When the process comes, we've all been in those long lines when we've tried to have our flights re-booked and vouchers for hotels and those sorts of things. We're not treated any differently from anybody else, and that may sound like equality, but it's not equity.
The equitable experience for us is that the needs of our bodies have to come first. We need to be asked if our medications and our food needs are okay. I have a service dog, as well, so are our dogs taken care of? Sometimes, if your suitcase has gone on to the final destination somehow but you haven't, have you been separated from those things?
That door-to-door experience has to happen no matter what the situation is, whether there are delays or all of your flights line up, it has to be, because it's never a consistent experience.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal