Evidence of meeting #110 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wheelchair.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
I believe it was for the interpreters, so I'd like to confer with the interpreters really quickly.
I have the thumbs-up from the interpreters.
Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.
Sir, we'll allow you to continue with the camera in its current function.
Once again, I'll restart your clock so that you can begin your opening remarks.
11:25 a.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
My apologies. With VPNs and everything between you and me at the police service, we're having all kinds of trouble.
As I said, my name is Robert Fenton. Professionally, I'm the director of legal services for the Calgary Police Service. I am here in my volunteer capacity, though, as chair of the CNIB national board of directors.
We are here today to present several recommendations to you on how to improve air travel for people who are blind, who have low vision and who are deaf-blind. While we do support the needs of other people with disabilities, we don't have the lived experience to speak to those directly, and we will leave it to other groups to speak on behalf of their own needs and their own circumstances.
As you may know, CNIB has been involved in advocating for changes to the transportation system since its inception, really, 106 years or so ago. We talked initially about changes to promote equal access to the rail system. As far as aviation is concerned, CNIB has been actively involved in the accessible standards committee run by the CTA both on accessible transportation and various other initiatives. We have been extensively involved as well in the passage of the air transportation regulations, which I know have been great discussion points throughout the committee's testimony.
CNIB has submitted a brief to you. I'm not going to spend a whole bunch of time going through that brief, because I'm sure you've read the material. Instead I want to focus on the areas that we will be making recommendations to you about in response, probably, to the various questions that we will be answering.
We want to talk to you about barriers to the booking process and check-in. We want to talk to you about barriers to navigating the airport, making payments for various things, such as for checking bags or buying something at airport stores that you may need to use. We want to talk about wayfinding at the airport and the inability of the airports to advertise or demonstrate that they have accessible wayfinding technologies installed. We want to talk about the need to treat passengers with disabilities with dignity during all parts of the journey, respecting the independence that they deserve as they access the airport system and the aircraft.
We also want to talk to you about security barriers that we face as we take new technology onto the plane that security staff aren't familiar with, and the invasive questions that we are required to answer when dealing with security personnel, who are encountering new equipment for the first time.
We want to talk to you about changes to the aircraft itself and accessibility barriers that exist on the aircraft. We also want to talk to you about “meet and assist” policies and processes that the airports have in place, and retrieval of baggage and barriers that occur there when you're a passenger with blindness or low vision.
Finally, we want to talk to you about guide dogs and the barriers that people with guide dogs face, as well as issues pertaining to documentation, proof of documentation, and retention of information by air carriers relating to a person's disability.
We have also reviewed the committee's brief that the AODA has filed, as well as listened to their presentation. We adopt those recommendations in addition to the 20 or so recommendations that we will outline for you in response to the various questions that you will ask us today.
Thank you very much for having us. I am prepared to answer questions when you want to hear from me.
Thank you.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Fenton.
Next we will go to, from AccessNow, Maayan Ziv, who's the chief executive officer joining us by video conference. I'll turn the floor over to you. You have five minutes, please.
11:30 a.m.
Maayan Ziv Chief Executive Officer, AccessNow
Thank you.
Honourable members of the committee, good morning.
My name is Maayan Ziv. I am the founder and CEO of AccessNow and the chair of the accessible travel journey technical committee for Accessibility Standards Canada.
Although I hold these positions, today the views I express are strictly my own.
As an advocate and a passenger with a disability, I speak from personal experience of repeated failures in our air travel system.
In September 2022, I travelled from Toronto to Tel Aviv. Upon arrival, I found my custom power wheelchair—which is essential for my mobility, health and independence—damaged beyond repair. This incident left me stranded, in pain and distress, and it forced me into a state of crisis management.
This marked the second time in my life when airline negligence resulted in my wheelchair being declared a total loss. Each occurrence has left me physically and emotionally shattered, with effects that linger and compound over time.
My wheelchair is not luggage, as we've heard today. It is an integral part of who I am and how I function. Without it, even temporarily, I face severe and far-reaching consequences.
There are no legal frameworks or protections that adequately acknowledge that a person's mobility device is an extension of their body. This critical oversight opens the door to ambiguous interpretations and lack of corporate accountability that leave disabled people vulnerable. As a result, we are forced to continually advocate to protect ourselves, our bodies, our dignity and our mobility.
When I shared my story on social media, my experience resonated internationally, capturing hundreds of millions of impressions and sparking the #rightsonflights movement.
Through this movement, thousands of stories have emerged that paint a stark picture of the consistent failures in air travel. These accounts reveal only a sliver of the trauma inflicted on disabled passengers and encompass physical harm, emotional distress, anxiety, abandonment and more. These stories are not isolated incidents, but a routine reality for travellers with disabilities. The stories paint a picture of a pattern of behaviour of negligence and discrimination.
The evidence of these systemic barriers is overwhelming.
I'd like to propose three measures today.
We must demand comprehensive and public reporting of every incident where a disabled passenger's rights are compromised, beyond the occasional story that captures media attention. Airlines must provide detailed, public data on all incidents affecting disabled travellers and our mobility devices—moving beyond anecdotal evidence and phrases like “tens of thousands travel normally” to a comprehensive accountability system.
We must implement automatic, stringent penalties that reflect the gravity of every incident where a mobility device is lost or damaged. Our current systems profoundly fail disabled people and place an onus on those in vulnerable positions to contend against billion-dollar corporations and fractured government entities.
It is unacceptable for airlines to dismiss the severe trauma experienced by disabled passengers with mere vouchers or hollow apologies. There must be immediate consequences every time for the violations of disabled passengers' rights.
Travel must also be standardized and predictable. Today, every flight I take feels like a negotiation to secure my well-being and my safety. We need standardized, enhanced handling and storage procedures for all types of mobility devices, with priority on keeping devices with the individual whenever possible. Comprehensive training for staff at all levels, including executive leadership, is crucial.
We need robust customer service policies and transparent action plans to address issues when they do and will continue to arise. We must guarantee consistent, respectful treatment at every single point of contact throughout the travel experience.
To conclude, we need a cultural shift towards greater empathy. No amount of documentation, wordsmithing or regulation can fully capture the humiliation and pain of being disregarded, mishandled or spoken down to, as if we disabled people are second-class citizens.
In no other mode of transportation are people forced out of their mobility aids or treated with such disregard. This dehumanization is in stark contrast to the values we claim to uphold as Canadians, and it must end.
Thank you for this opportunity to advocate for change. I look forward to answering your questions.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Ms. Ziv.
We will now hear from Mr. Paul Lupien, who is president of the Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec.
Mr. Lupien, you have the floor for five minutes.
11:35 a.m.
Paul Lupien Chair, Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec
Thank you very much.
Good morning. My name is Paul Lupien and I'm chair of the board of directors of the Confédération des organismes de personnes handicapées du Québec, or COPHAN.
COPHAN is a non-profit organization founded in 1985. Its mission is to make Quebec inclusive in order to ensure the full social participation of people with functional limitations and their families. Its board of directors is made up of a majority of directors with disabilities, including me. COPHAN brings together more than 50 national and regional organizations and groups of people with all types of functional limitations.
COPHAN relies on the expertise and skills of people with functional limitations and their families. Through their member organizations, they participate democratically in the decisions and orientations of COPHAN, whose mandate is to represent them and defend their rights before the authorities.
I would like to thank the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities of the House of Commons of Canada for giving us the opportunity to offer our expertise in universal accessibility and the inclusion of people with functional limitations, particularly with regard to transportation.
The Accessible Canada Act aims to achieve a barrier-free Canada by 2040. When it comes to transportation, however, there's still a lot of work to be done.
Transportation by train and boat is not the biggest challenge for people with functional limitations. It seems to be going fairly well, although we are concerned about obstacles experienced when embarking and disembarking, as well as the use of certain access ramps. It is still possible to find accessible bathrooms and keep our wheelchair during transport.
On the other hand, air travel poses a problem for people with functional limitations. We find that many people face, first and foremost, obstacles in the process of booking tickets and checking in at ticket counters.
In addition, people with functional limitations face greater obstacles when travelling by air.
First of all, let's mention being seated in very small, uncomfortable transfer chairs. If you're an obese person in a wheelchair and you're transferred into one of these, it's very uncomfortable. Even managing to get into the chair is quite an undertaking.
There's also the fact that the wheelchair is taken as checked baggage, treated as luggage and risks getting broken. For you, it's a wheelchair, but don't forget that for me, it's my legs. You have to take that into consideration. I don't think that if you were to cut someone's feet off while they were walking, you'd just apologize for cutting them off by accident, and tell them they'd have to spend their vacations without their feet. Breaking our chair is like taking away our legs.
Another obstacle is the impossibility of using the toilet inside airplanes. Unfortunately, airplane wheelchairs cannot fit into this space. Even if we could get the wheelchair in, the door wouldn't close. This is a real problem for us. If other passengers have the right to go to the toilet, why can't we?
Finally, let's highlight the difficulty of travelling with a guide dog or service animal. Once again, we have to bear in mind that, for a blind person, the white cane or the service dog are their eyes. We must always take into consideration that what we use to palliate our handicap replaces a body part that, in our case, no longer functions.
Let's turn now to the recommendations.
COPHAN recommends that staff at check-in counters be trained to welcome people with disabilities. If I'm with my wife, why are they asking her questions that should be addressed to me? I can be addressed directly. I can talk. The proof is that I'm here today.
COPHAN also recommends that airlines add accessible aircraft to their fleets, so that people with disabilities can remain in their wheelchairs when travelling by air, and that all people with disabilities are able to use on-board lavatories. At least one of them should be accessible to them.
Finally, COPHAN recommends that people with functional limitations be allowed to travel with their guide dog or service animal without problems.
I'd like to highlight one point in particular. As I was saying, when a wheelchair user arrives at an airport and is provided with an airplane seat that is really uncomfortable, it's frustrating. You try handling one of these seats and you'll see that it's not easy. We wheelchair users feel like second-class passengers. In my case, my manual wheelchair could fit on a plane. So why am I not allowed to keep it?
Moreover, if I could keep my own chair on the plane, it wouldn't be sent to the hold and it would be less likely to get damaged. Often, attendants throw luggage into the hold. When someone arrives at their destination and the wheels of their wheelchair are damaged, for example, there's no guarantee that repairs can be made immediately or the next day. It can take a long time.
In short, what we use to compensate for our disability replaces a part of our body. People have to think of them as such, not as mere objects. That's the most important recommendation we can make.
Thank you very much.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Lupien.
Just for the information of members, the witness who needs to leave early is Mr. Fenton. If you have questions for Mr. Fenton, I encourage you to ask those questions early on.
We begin our line of questioning today with Mr. Strahl. Mr. Strahl, you have six minutes. The floor is yours, sir.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will take your advice and start with my questions to Mr. Fenton.
First of all, thank you to all of the witnesses for sharing what is very difficult testimony. Clearly these experiences are not just one-time events, something that happens and then you move on from it. I think it reaffirms, for many people who live with disabilities, many past incidents as well, and that trauma is revisited. In many cases it simply reinforces that society is not yet doing the job that needs to be done to support people with disabilities. Travel is supposed to be a positive experience. It's heartbreaking, quite frankly, to hear some of these stories. I appreciate the opportunity to try to be part of a solution here for all of you and for the millions of people experiencing similar experiences.
Mr. Fenton, I read a post of yours on LinkedIn, in which you said, “Blind travellers, beware when you travel through Pearson Airport now.” You laid out a scenario in which there are multiple hand-offs, from airport personnel to Air Canada personnel, to porters, to actually picking up your bags off of the luggage carousel. One thing we heard or one suggestion that's been made is that we need to do a better job of eliminating all of those different “hand-offs”, I'll call them, among airport, airline, security and baggage personnel. It sounds to me that an individual who needs assistance navigating the travel system could go through five or six people with various levels of training and responsibility trying to assist them. Can you talk about that part of the travel experience?
As I understand it, in some European airports the airport itself is responsible for the passenger experience, from the time they reach the curb until the time they are seated on the aircraft. I'm wondering if you have thoughts on that sort of system or if you might have any thoughts on how to ensure that passengers with disabilities don't fall through the cracks whenever there is a hand-off between persons responsible for their travel experiences.
11:45 a.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Thank you, Mr. Strahl.
Just for the benefit of the committee, I will move my other commitments so that I can stay as long as you need me. This happens frequently to us as lawyers, so just take whatever time you need. I will answer whatever questions you have.
In response to your specific question, this is a tremendously important issue for people who are blind, who have low vision or who are deaf-blind. Every time we're passed from one person to another, we have to redescribe our bags. We have to redescribe the various services we need or things we need to do. We have to retrain people on what sort of assistance we may or may not require. We are dealing with people with different levels of skill and different levels of training. It just adds to the frustration of the travel experience.
I would very much support, as an individual—as would, I suspect, most people who are blind—the idea of being able to follow one person from the time of check-in or arrival at the airport right until they board the plane. There's nothing more frustrating than being handed off after you go through security, not knowing that the security agents have moved your bags to various terminals to be checked, not knowing what's where and not being able to tell the agent who has now met you where your stuff has gone. That's a reality for those of us who are blind.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Hope, BC
Right. There's also the issue, I assume—we've heard this before—that the person with the disability, often on the spot, is basically doing on-the-spot training for the person who is helping them. They're explaining their situation again and again. Having to do that four, five or six times in a travel experience is another form of trauma for people.
Maybe you can express that. I certainly....
11:45 a.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Yes. I think you're absolutely right.
The thing that frustrates me even more is that about three years ago, I did a training video with Deloitte for Air Canada in which we talked about these various issues. It's being used by the airline and I'm recognized a number of times by airline staff as I go through the airport, yet funnily enough, they don't seem to have absorbed the content of that video.
One of the points I make is that everywhere along the journey, passengers with disabilities need, one, to be treated with dignity at all times and, two, to be able to exercise that degree of independence they wish to exercise as part of their travel journey.
This is what's missing in all of this. All of that independence, as we're passed from person to person to person, is taken away from us. I'm going to put it as directly as I can. We're treated like cargo, and that's not acceptable.
We're passengers, just like everyone else.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Fenton.
Thank you, Mr. Strahl.
Next, we have Mr. Iacono. The floor is yours. You have six minutes.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My first question will be for Mr. Fenton.
Can you elaborate on why guide dogs are crucial for the day-to-day activities for persons with a visual impairment?
11:50 a.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Certainly.
As a lawyer, my guide dog accompanies me everywhere. She comes to court with me. She goes on aircraft. She goes to work with me every day. Everywhere I navigate the community, she's basically with me.
She helps me get around obstacles. She helps me travel in unfamiliar areas, especially when I don't know what the configuration is and where the turns are. I can ask her. I can tell when I'm walking up to a store that it is a store and that there's an opening. I can tell her to turn left and she'll take me into the opening.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
It's a dog's man's.... It's a man's dog's best.... I'm sorry. It's a man's best dog.... Oh, God.
It's man's best friend.
11:50 a.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
I understand what you're saying.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
I have another question. How do airlines accommodate guide dogs when travelling?
11:50 a.m.
Board Chair, Canadian National Institute for the Blind
Here's the thing: There's a way they're supposed to do it, and then there's a way that some of them actually do it. I'll add a story here as I respond to this about a recent experience I had.
I was travelling from Calgary to Vancouver, L.A. and Toronto, and then back to Calgary, over a seven-day period. When you travel in Canada, the airline is supposed to give you an extra seat for your dog at no cost, and your dog is to sit on the floor at that seat. That is to give you extra space as the passenger, to give the dog space, and to not inconvenience the passenger who is beside you in a group of three seats, for example.
When you travel internationally, that second seat is not available, and you have to fit the dog under the seat that you're occupying. What sometimes happens with the airlines is, if you have some segments that are international and some that are not, the airline takes the position that, for the Canadian segments, you're not entitled to that extra seat even if the Canadian segment of your trip happens several days before the international segment.
That's what happened to me when I was on the big trip I told you about. I went to the airport after being in Toronto for two days, and after coming back from L.A., not knowing that the airline had given my second seat away. When I arrived at the airport, I had a bag at my feet and the dog beside me, expecting to have the other seat, and then this passenger shows up. There was no room in the bins, and there was no room elsewhere on the aircraft. Of course, my bag has batteries and stuff in it that I'm not supposed to check, so from Toronto to Calgary, I had a dog, a bag and me in the same space.
Welcome to travel in 2024 on Canadian airlines.
April 18th, 2024 / 11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Michelle Hewitt, I think you also spoke in your opening remarks about service dog support, which is obviously not limited to those with vision impairment. Could you expand on some of the other critical services they provide to persons with disabilities?
11:50 a.m.
Chair, Disability Without Poverty
Yes, thank you.
You're not with us, but Leo is here next to me. Leo provides a number of services to me. I get spasticity in my legs from my MS, and certainly being crunched up into an airline seat can be very difficult, so he provides what's called deep pressure. He literally lies on my legs.
However, as Mr. Fenton mentioned, they're meant to be on the floor. We had a couple of moments when Leo would get onto my lap, and the stewardess would come and look at me. My response was, “Bring it on. Let's talk about this, shall we?”
I did get the extra seat because we were travelling within Canada. This was Leo's first time flying. Quite honestly, it was easier to fly with Leo than it is to fly with my wheelchair. I've only had the one experience. I expect I'm not going to be going anywhere internationally until things change, because I can't deal with having a dog and a wheelchair while flying out of this country.
As I mentioned, I can't support myself with my upper body strength for the length of time it takes to be in an airplane seat, but my parents are 80, and they live in England. You can imagine all of the stress it places on me when I can't do any of that.
In addition, COVID did a number on my anxiety. Leo is well aware of what happens to me if I start to get anxious—
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you.
I have one last question for Mr. Gabriel Reznick.
Airlines have pushed back on many rulings by the CTA ordering them to be more accessible. Have airlines committed to do this work, and how can government push them to be more accommodating?
11:55 a.m.
Staff Lawyer, ARCH Disability Law Centre
This is a difficult question, as we're currently in that act of litigation, but some of the things government could do include more inspections and stronger enforcement. Maayan mentioned earlier the need for automatic penalties for certain infringements, which would also be stronger penalties. It's up to the courts. The courts can make clear in their decisions that, for persons with disabilities, they have that duty to accommodate and they must accommodate under the law.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Reznick.
Thank you, Mr. Iacono.
Mr. Fenton, I see that your hand is up, sir. Is there a technical problem that you need to have addressed?