Veterans Affairs Committee on June 8th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'd like to welcome everybody here to our meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Hello, all our people in bright shiny faces, all in their places.

We are very lucky today to have the Minister of Veterans Affairs here with us, and some of his officials as well.

Without further ado, I wish to turn the floor over to the Minister of Veterans Affairs for his presentation.

Mr. Thibault, sorry.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, before we get into the presentation of the minister I'd like to ask the committee's indulgence, once again. I wish to defer the motion I have on the order paper that would be dealt with at the end of the meeting to the next sitting of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

That's understood, Mr. Thibault. That's perfectly fine with me, as long as the rest of the committee members are all right with that.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Minister.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I get going, Mr. Chair, I want to introduce my colleagues. At the table with me I have my deputy, Jack Stagg, to assist me; assistant deputy Verna Bruce; and our Veterans Appeal and Review Board chairman, Victor Marchand.

I might as well continue. We have Rick Hillier, Brian Ferguson, Bob Mercer, and others who I may not identify.

We just came back from a little road trip, so we're a bit weary. We were actually in Newfoundland this morning and came back, Mr. Chairman, for your meeting. I think we're none the worse for wear, but I want to begin, Mr. Chairman, by thanking you, and it's a pleasure to be with you.

I would also like to congratulate each of you around this table for being selected to serve on this new committee.

I've already had a chance to speak with several of you, and I know your first priority is the best interests of our veterans. Together I think we represent a new beginning in the way we treat the men and women in uniform who have served and continue to serve our country with such courage and distinction.

Our veterans have given this nation their very best, and we have a duty to match it with our own best efforts. Few ministers have a more noble or humbling mandate. That is why I am proud to be here as Minister of Veterans Affairs. Our new government has demonstrated from the start that we understand our duty to Canada's veterans. The creation of this committee is just one obvious example.

Our implementation of the new Veterans Charter and our pledge to appoint a veterans ombudsman and to adopt a veterans bill of rights are further evidence of our determination to do the right thing for our veterans. With your help we want to do even more to recognize and repay our veterans for their great sacrifice and achievements.

Before we look at the budgetary figures in front of us, I would like to speak a little more about the initiatives I've just mentioned and I would like to share with you some of the other work under way in the department.

As you know, the new Veterans Charter offers the most sweeping changes to veterans benefits and services in more than half a century, but this is not the end of our work. I'd like to refer to the new charter as an open book, a living document that will evolve with the changing needs of our veterans.

When the original charter was written 60 years ago it was designed to help veterans returning from the Second World War, and then Korea. It may surprise you to learn today that the average age of Canadian Forces members being released from the military is 36 years old. By almost any measurement, 36 years of age is the prime of life, and starting over in your prime is not always easy.

The new charter is meant to serve as a bridge to help veterans and their families make the transition from military life to civilian life. That's not all it does, however. In fact, let me be very clear: the new charter is designed as a fresh commitment to our veterans and their families that this country will stand by them for life.

This strategy includes a new dual award approach that is far more generous than the single award disability pension it replaces. Under the new charter there's both a disability award, which is a lump sum tax-free payment of up to $250,000, and an earnings loss benefit equalling 75% of a CF veteran's pre-release salary. As well, there are a number of other services, including expanded health care and rehabilitation programs, and vocational training and support.

No less important, however, is the simultaneous commitment we are making to our veterans' families. The fact is that we never know when a military career is going to be interrupted when we send our soldiers on high-risk missions. They need to know we're also going to be with them and there for their families if things go tragically wrong.

The new charter does that. It provides immediate financial support to our veterans' survivors and dependent children, and then delivers long-term help. The charter includes specific measures for spouses to go back to school or to obtain other job training, if or when they decide they are ready to join the workforce.

The new charter also ensures that we are there when any dependent children want to pursue a post-secondary education.

As well, the new charter recognizes that not all injuries are necessarily physical. More than ever, CF members are being deployed on longer and more dangerous missions, and they are being asked to serve on subsequent missions with less time to recuperate from the last one.

Members of the RCMP also face unprecedented stress with modern-day threats and conflicts, both at home and abroad. We witnessed some of those in Toronto last week with the 17 arrests in connection with the alleged home-grown terrorist cell.

All of this has led to a sharp rise in the number of mental-health-related cases. The number of VAC pensions for post-traumatic stress disorder has jumped more than 350% over the four-year period ending March 2005. In fact, Veterans Affairs Canada has nearly 9,000 clients pensioned for mental-health-related conditions.

We realize this is the new reality facing our troops, and we're working with the Department of National Defence to provide the kind of comprehensive mental health care and support our veterans need. Last month, for example, we opened a new operational stress injury social support facility, which is located off-site from CFB Gagetown. The location is almost as important as the treatment itself, because it recognizes the discreet and sensitive way mental health issues need to be handled.

Too often, troops suffer mental illness in silence. As some experts have pointed out, there is still a social stigma attached to mental illness that leaves some soldiers hesitant to seek help in the full view of their fellow troops. We're trying to address this full range of issues and needs.

l've distributed among you some examples to help compare the differences between the benefits and services available under the new charter and the old system. If you like, I would be more than pleased, with my officials, to walk you through the examples when we move into the question-and-answer portion of our meeting.

l'd like to emphasize, however, that these improved measures for modern-day veterans take nothing away from the care and support our war service veterans have come to expect from us. Just the opposite is true. This is an important point. Of the 837,000 veterans in Canada, 258,000 are war service veterans, and sadly, about 25,000 of our war service veterans are passing away every year.

We owe it to them to make sure their final years are as rewarding and comfortable as possible. That includes helping them to live independently for as long as they can, in their own homes. And when our elderly war service veterans do need to enter a long-term care facility, we want them to be confident they will get the specialized health care they need and deserve. That's no small consideration when we currently have almost 10,600 veterans living in long-term care facilities.

We are bringing this same level of commitment to the other issues our department is tackling. The Agent Orange issue at CFB Gagetown is a case in point. Our new government is determined to address concerns raised by CF members, veterans, civilians, and area residents about herbicide use at the New Brunswick training base.

In fact, Prime Minister Stephen Harper is the first national leader to deal with the problem head-on. He wants a resolution; it is a commitment our new government has made. As a result, my department, which has taken the lead role on the compensation side of this issue, is studying a variety of options and models. And I feel very good about the support l've been getting from my colleagues and individual MPs, many in this room and many in opposition, Mr. Chair.

We are making progress, and we will see the results either this year or early next year. l'm sure if you asked any veterans, they would tell you that all they want from their dealings with the government is fair, equal, and effective treatment. This is a major reason why we have embraced, for example, a more open process for inviting applications for appointment to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board. Veterans deserve to have their cases reviewed by an independent, fair, and professional tribunal. They also deserve to have their cases heard in a timely manner, which is why I'm looking for ways to clear up a backlog of about 7,500 cases. Such delays are simply unacceptable.

I wish I had more time, because I'd like to elaborate at some length on our work fulfilling the Prime Minister's promise to appoint a veterans ombudsman and adopt a veterans bill of rights. Let me just say we are consulting extensively with our veterans organizations, individuals, and other clients to make sure we get both initiatives right the first time. If we do, we will properly demonstrate this government's commitment to openness, transparency, and accountability.

We will also be getting to the heart of what defines this department. At the end of the day, our sole interest is the care, well-being, and health of our veterans, and to keep the memory of their achievements and sacrifices alive for all Canadians. It's no more complicated than that.

In carrying out this simple and honourable mission in the coming year, the Veterans Affairs portfolio is seeking approval for a total of just over $3.2 billion in the 2006-07 main estimates.

At this point, I need to stress that these main estimates tabled on April 25 are based on the previous government's budget in 2005, and do not provide a completely accurate reflection of the current government's spending priorities. Briefly stated, the main estimates amount to a $350 million increase over last year's budget, and $250 million of this is directly attributable to the more generous new charter. It is a price worth paying, however, to make sure our veterans are treated with the respect and dignity they've earned.

I'll just highlight some of the big numbers now, and if you have any questions about the details, I'll be happy to answer them at the end of my remarks.

By far the majority of these funds, some $2.1 billion, or almost two-thirds of the total, will be paid directly to veterans and their families as pensions, disability awards, allowances for disability and death, and other economic support. Of this amount, $250 million will go to disability awards and allowances, earnings lost in supplemental retirement benefits under the new charter. I'm pleased to say only 7% of this departmental spending is for corporate services and program delivery costs. Health care benefits for our veterans and their families account for most of the remaining one-third of the department's budget.

The largest single expenditure on this side of the ledger is the approximately $368 million spent on long-term and nursing-home care for veterans, including the operation of Ste. Anne's Hospital near Montreal. I was at that hospital last week, and I can tell you our money is being well spent. Ste. Anne's is one of those government success stories we hear too little about. I had a chance to meet many veterans there, and they are as fine and distinguished a group as you could ever hope to be with. I did the same thing last week at Ridgewood in Saint John, New Brunswick.

In fact the several hours I spent there made for one of the most rewarding, emotional days in my first four months as the Minister of Veterans Affairs. When the veterans are shaking your hand and not wanting to let go, they're really saying thank you for the exceptional care they're getting. It's their expression of gratitude to a grateful nation. In turn, they filled me with even more determination to make sure we honour and serve our veterans with the respect, the dignity, and generosity of spirit they deserve.

St. Francis of Assisi once said, “Preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary use words.” I look forward to working with you in the months and years ahead to make sure our actions on behalf of this country's veterans match our words.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Now we open it up to questions. Mr. Thibault for the Liberal Party, you are first.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, I want to thank you for being here. I hope that this is the first of many such occasions when the committee has a chance to interchange with you, either formally or informally, and that we work together towards achieving the stated goal of service to our veterans.

I want to congratulate you on your appointment. I know that you have a personal commitment to the service of veterans, and I wish you well in that position.

I congratulate you on your start. I think you have the responsibility for implementation of the charter, which has been a six-year process of work by the staff at your department, in consultation with all the associations and organizations committed to veterans.

We've heard from the Royal Canadian Legion this week. We were very pleased with the consultative process that led us here.

Now is the implementation phase. Many ministers worked through that process, including the late Ron Duhamel, who would have been the minister when this process started. He was a great member of this House.

I know you take the job of implementation very seriously, and I congratulate you on the first step, which is that the retroactive awarding of benefits is now available to Canadian veterans who were lost overseas between the time of the royal proclamation and the implementation. I think that was a very good move by yourself and your colleagues, and I congratulate you for it.

There are many questions I would have for you in this short period of time. I'd like to talk to you about the flag at half-mast. I'd like to talk to you about Agent Orange and rolling out the money as quickly as possible. I'd like to talk to you about November 11, and the question of whether it should be a national holiday or not. About these, and the bill of rights and the ombudsman, I am sure my colleagues and the colleagues opposite will raise many points.

One of the more important challenges I would like to raise with you, Minister, is the question of the famous CPP clawback to pensioners, both RCMP and military. There's a very fuzzy understanding of that, and there has been some maybe misleading information given to veterans about how it would apply, if we could do it.

The House will be dealing with the private member's bill. It will probably be my duty to support this bill, so that it comes to committee and everybody can fully understand it. I know it will have no effect for veterans or RCMP pensioners, unless there is a royal warrant from government, because it would mean new spending.

However, there are some very important points as to how we should accept the basic principle of the bill being put forward. Even if it can or can't be retroactively applied to people already on pension, let the choice be given again to the people who are now contributing, so that when their retirement day comes, they would have the ability to have the Canada Pension Plan above their regular superannuation pension. We know that is the case for the RCMP and the veterans, but that would apply to anybody, I suppose, on the superannuation plan.

But the opinion or suggestion has been put out there that it's a stroke-of-the-pen possibility for government to implement such action: to retroactively end the so-called clawback for all veterans. I have a lot of pensioners in my riding, and if that is in any way possible, I can assure you I'd like to have that happen, because I'd like to have them see that money.

What I think is most important, Mr. Minister, is that there be a full understanding by each and every pensioner of what is the process, how did it happen, and what is the art of the possible in this question. I think that's a great challenge for yourself and for your officials.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Robert--I mean, Mr. Thibault; I should be more formal.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

No problem.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

You had an interesting introduction, but you've gotten into an issue that is a rather tough one to publicly explain, because you're basically talking about a pension where some of the benefits are clawed back, and you articulated what those are.

I guess one of the things we have to remember is that there are two groups who actually pay into that pension plan, the employee and the employer, and usually, in this case, the employer—the government—is paying in more than the employee. It's not as if it's only one individual contributing to the plan.

At the end of the day, as with anything else, there would be a cost to government of eliminating that clawback.

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that clawback will apply to you and me upon our retirement as well.

From a human point of view, you can argue as to why government should do this, but at the end of the day it has to do with the costs we incur. It reaches across many branches of government.

I think the other thing you have to consider is that if in fact the clawback were eliminated, the cost to government at some point would have to be incurred by some other group. You could argue that even the pension plans themselves, as they operate and function, and given how the actuaries' projections and the costs extended over a number of years are calculated.... It would mean that at the end of the day if the clawback did not occur, the pensions would have to be reduced. In other words, at the end of the day there has to be a consolidation of all those facts in terms of what the net benefit would be to the recipient, the pensioner.

I guess what I'm telling you is there's no easy answer to it. I think everyone in this room, regardless of whether they're an accountant or were the President of the Treasury Board, would be sympathetic at a human level to the issue that occurs. But at the end of the day, it would have a huge impact on governments.

What I will tell you is—and “you” would be as a former cabinet minister and a member of the crown, if you will—that this is an issue the previous government has dealt with as well, unsuccessfully. At the end of the day, it's going to be a cost incurred by government, and I would argue that when everything is considered, in terms of the level of pensions received today and the fact that there are two contributors to the plan, it's much more complicated than it looks. I don't expect any federal government is going to step into that void in the near future. That would be my belief, Mr. Thibault.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Now it is to Monsieur Perron, with the Bloc, for seven minutes.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I would like to call you Grégoire, but decorum requires that I call you Mr. Minister. So, Mr. Minister, I apologize if, in the course of conversation, I use “tu” or address you on a first name basis.

You know about my background and my language; I am a Quebecker. So let’s talk about Hôpital Sainte-Anne, at Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue, which is in my backyard, just on the other side of beautiful Lac des Deux Montagnes, which you must have seen. You’ve seen my riding.

I would like to find out what the status of construction is there. Is the construction work on schedule? It's supposed to be completed by the end of the year. Will it be the case? Is it on budget? Are we under budget or, on the contrary, has the building budget allocated been exceeded? How many new beds will it provide?

Let’s begin with these questions. I will ask others later on, as we move on.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Gilles.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I was down to Ste. Anne's, as I mentioned in my opening statements, the other day. I guess words really can't describe the feelings of going through that hospital, seeing the care that our veterans get, and the dedicated staff.

We've set aside about $104 million for that project, and I believe the contract was let for about $67 million. I did actually walk through the new pavilion the other day, and it's well on schedule, and it's on track. I was quite impressed by the team leaders down there who are leading that project on behalf of Veterans Affairs. They really are in command and are doing a great job, and they're paying a lot of attention to detail.

The pavilion will result in the modernization of 446 beds. I don't have at my fingertips the amount of new space that's being provided in the pavilion, but I believe it's in the order of 40 units. I'll have my deputy check that number out, Mr. Perron.

It is on schedule.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

It will bring up the total to 285 beds.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

The modernization project in total will bring up the number to 446 beds. The number I'm searching for--which we'll have here in a minute--is how many would be provided in the construction of what they call the new pavilion, which aside from the tower.... I'm sure you've been in the tower building. Of course, that's going to go through some extensive renovation as well when the project is completed.

But I can tell you that the project is on schedule, and the work being done is extremely good. And they are paying a lot of attention to detail. So I'm pretty pleased by what I see at Ste. Anne's.

Of course, as you well know, under the new charter there will be an expanded role for Ste. Anne's as well.

There is some controversy regarding some of the property owned by Veterans Affairs down there as well, which wasn't part of your question. Veterans Affairs own 65 acres in addition to the buildings, and a nine-hole golf course, enjoyed by some of the veterans in the past. It's a beautiful piece of property and is being managed very well by our officials down there.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Minister, you’ll have noticed that my introductions are very short. I’d like the answers to be short too, so that we can cover as much as possible.

Yes, the people told me that you went to Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue. They also told me they enjoyed meeting with you, and that you were very warm. I have some concerns, however. I think there was not much discussion, except for a few handshakes with the young veterans, that is, those struggling with post-traumatic stress syndrome, or PTSS. You didn’t talk much with them and you said very little to them about the services you would provide for them. I’d like you to tell us a little more about PTSS.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Again, I did talk fairly extensively to some of them. I was there half a day, and I'm more than willing to go back. That's one of the areas we're paying a lot of attention to.

I mentioned in my opening remarks, as you know, Mr. Perron, that 9,000 veterans are presently pensionable, or are in a pensionable condition under the old charter, as a result of post-traumatic stress, occupational stress, injury, and so on. It's an area that's going to be increasingly prevalent and growing simply because of the stress situations some of our soldiers are in.

Again, I go back to Roméo Dallaire, who says that he believes we have the best system of any country in the world, going into the future in terms of dealing with that specific disorder. He's quite convinced that we're doing the right thing and that we're on the right track.

We're watching that very carefully. We know there's going to be a definite increase in post-traumatic stress syndrome and the accompanying diseases--mental illnesses, alcoholism, drug dependency, and some of the silent diseases that we often don't deal with effectively, and I think the department is well on the way to doing that. I'm quite encouraged by what I see.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

My ten minutes is ending. I’d simply like to remind you taht you should check your information with Hôpital Sainte-Anne. In fact, at that hospital, four beds are reserved for people suffering from PTSS. There are not 25 or 50 out of 485. There are only four beds for 9,000 patients, 9,000 future clients. Again, I think we are neglecting the young people who suffer from these problems. This is a serious illness caused by what has occurred on the battlefield and elsewhere. Post-traumatic stress syndrome is an illness.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Your concern is real and it's genuine, Mr. Perron, and I will tell you that in the new pavilion there will be a section set aside for that very malady that you're suggesting. It is a challenge for the department; it's one that we recognize, and it's one we're going to continue to improve. But I take your comments very seriously. Thank you.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, and I hope that we’ll have the opportunity to meet again soon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

Now we'll go to the NDP.

Mr. Bevington, I thought when you first walked in you were crossing the floor on us, but I see you've regained the NDP spot over there.

You have five minutes, sir.