Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

You have 31 seconds.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Okay.

You talked about treatment. I'm just wondering, is there a difference between the contract rooms and those in our communities in terms of standard of treatment? You're seeing a 20% vacancy in the contract beds, and yet you're seeing an increase in the utilization of community beds. We understand that people want to stay in their communities, but we also recognize that many of these communities will have the contract beds in them also, even if they are the larger centres.

[Darragh Mogan]

I'll try to respond briefly to that.

We have found that if you give veterans a choice, they'll choose to be as close to home as possible. That to some extent will explain the vacancy rate in the 14 larger contract facilities, because they're located in communities where about 50% of the veterans live.

To me, that explains it. It's not that the care isn't good in these contract facilities--we pride ourselves on it being excellent--but it's just not convenient for a man and a woman when the man is 85 and the woman can't drive any more. Even in Toronto it's not convenient for someone who lives in northwest Etobicoke to go to Sunnybrook.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

We now have the second round of the rotation, which goes to the Liberal Party.

Mr. Boshcoff, for five minutes.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This is Ken Boshcoff, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, and I'll ask my questions. Perhaps you can write them down and then respond back. They shouldn't take very long.

One, when we talk about contract beds, these are both chronic and long-term, I'm assuming, at an average of 2.6 years. Is this usually the final domicile for most of these veterans?

Two, would communities in northwestern Ontario, such as Fort Frances, Atikokan, Rainy River, and Emo, be eligible for provincial travel grants out of province to, say, Winnipeg, or does the VAC do this as part of their social integration of funding formula?

Three, we talked about a 20% vacancy growing in contract beds, and we're averaging 2,000 deaths a month. Does this budget transfer to the 81% increase in community beds? Would the number of veterans returning from Afghanistan and the Middle East and other theatres have a portion of this for both physical and mental treatment? Are there adequate dollars to address their new needs?

Four, we hear of many cases that make the news about people who are short weeks or months of eligibility. In view of the average age being 84, will there be any relaxation of these rules to accommodate some of these people who are short by days, weeks, or months?

Five, with regard to the uninsured costs, you identify that many provinces and territories may pay fully and others not. What is the spectrum--100% payment to zero, if that is the range?

Finally, I'd like a quick response on the timeframe for the veterans health services review. I thought that would be done already. When can we expect some finality on this?

Thank you.

[Darragh Mogan]

I'll try, with my colleague Mr. Miller, to answer the questions, but there were a number of them there. I just want to make sure I get to all of them.

You asked about...[Technical difficulty--Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Once again, we're having some difficulty here. The transmission is coming through in a staccato manner. As a result, the translators are having difficulty. Mr. Gaudet has brought that to our attention.

I don't know; just try your best on your end, sir, with your microphone. I'm sorry.

[Darragh Mogan]

Maybe I'll just speak more slowly.

In terms of the final domicile and the 2.6 years, yes, for the most part that is their final domicile. Veterans Affairs Canada does not provide travel grants for individuals to travel to facilities--for instance, to Deer Lodge. That's something we could certainly look at, but we don't do that now.

In some ways it might be preferable, if you can get comparable care, to invest the money in providing care in the community where the individual lives rather than travelling a long way off.

[Ken Miller]

To add to that, we do and can provide for the cost of travel when the veteran actually has to travel a distance to get the appropriate level of care. If it isn't available in their community at the community facility or an institution that is close to them, then we will take them whatever distance is required to have them go to the right facility.

You asked a question as well about vacancy in contract beds. I think the focus of your question was basically about the flexibility we had in terms of moving budgetary amounts between funding community beds or funding contract beds, and also covering funding requirements for the beds for Canadian Forces veterans. You used the example of what veterans returning from Afghanistan may have. There is a fair bit of flexibility around that in terms of our budget and how we use it to provide for the treatment costs in those various care settings.

You had a question as well concerning eligibility, and you made reference to clients falling somewhat short of timeframe. The only case in point that comes to mind around that is in the case of Canada-service-only veterans who were individuals who served during the time period of the Second World War but never left Canada. There is a regulatory requirement that they would have served for 365 days in order to become eligible. We do from time to time see individuals who have served various lesser periods who don't have eligibility. That is something that potentially could change in the future, if there were a will to explore that.

Your fifth question was around uninsured costs and what the range is. There is a considerable range across the country. It typically tends to be higher cost to Veterans Affairs in the east, and lower cost in the west. However, from a veteran's point of view, it's a wash, because veterans who are receiving care pay what we call an accommodation and meals rate. That is calculated on the same basis for clients regardless of where they live. It's a little over the $800 a month range, and that covers the cost of accommodation and meals, obviously things they would pay for if they were living in their own private accommodation rather than in a facility. The way it works is, regardless of the level of provincial insurance that provides for the beds, from a veteran's perspective it equalizes at the end of the day.

The last question was around timeframe in relation to the veterans health services review. Mr. Mogan will respond to that.

[Darragh Mogan]

The question is probably more properly directed to the minister, because it is more of a political question.

I can say that the department and the Gerontological Advisory Council are seized with the same urgency that's behind this question, and we would like to be in a position—I think our minister has said this fall—to bring some proposals forward. I'd like to think we'll meet that timetable, but really, beyond that, maybe Ms. Hinton can comment. Beyond that, I really don't feel I can say more.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right.

I want to let you know, Mr. Boshcoff, you got appreciably more time than five minutes. I'll put it that way.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

With all respect, Mr. Chair, that's why I tried to condense my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I understand, and you've worked very effectively that way.

Now we'll go to Monsieur Gaudet with the Bloc Québécois, for five minutes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Last weekend, on Remembrance Day, I met a veteran who fought in World War II. That man was 87 years old. He only received his veteran's pension two years ago.

Earlier you said that Mr. Valley had a large riding. My riding isn't as large. You say that the Royal Canadian Legion knows its people, but I'm not sure of that. The Legion isn't a little social club. Veterans who go to the Legion... I've only been in two legions, because there are two in my riding. However, there are five or six veterans at most. I'd like to hear your opinion on the subject.

[Darragh Mogan]

It's Darragh Mogan here, Mr. Gaudet.

If I understand your question, it is whether the Royal Canadian Legion receives money to help veterans. The answer is no, they don't. They are an independent veterans organization and have been since 1924. What they do for Veterans Affairs, on an out-of-pocket basis only, is help us with surveys of the almost 11,000 veterans we have in long-term care. It's only their out-of-pocket costs that are covered for that, and they are a great help in that regard. Beyond that—it's a voluntary organization—there's no financial contribution by the government.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

So the real veterans, those who really need help, aren't receiving it. I thought the Canadian Legion received a certain amount of money for administrative purposes in order to provide real support to veterans. From what you're telling me, it's aid to the Department of Veterans' Affairs, that's all. We're talking about surveys, among other things. It's not a matter of providing services to veterans.

[Darragh Mogan]

Monsieur Gaudet, I don't think.... My answer could be maybe misunderstood. The facts are they provide a service bureau for veterans and help them, as part of the dues that members pay—the 425,000 members there are. They are an advocacy group. They would not accept money from Veterans Affairs for that reason.

Where we do have a financial arrangement with them is only for out-of-pocket costs in doing facility patient satisfaction surveys for us. There's no exchange of money with the Royal Canadian Legion, nor would they want there to be one that would involve compromising their independence as an advocacy group.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Are our young veterans, whether they're returning from Afghanistan or elsewhere, covered by your veterans services policy? What are you doing for them when they return to Canada?

[Darragh Mogan]

Yes, Monsieur Gaudet, they are part of our commitment to service. We'll provide them with all the benefits that are available under the new veterans charter that was passed by all-party agreement in April of 2006. They're fully eligible for that.

We have a responsibility, once National Defence has looked after the initial injury, to care for them when they become veterans, and to care for their families, to provide them with a job placement program, a comprehensive rehabilitation program, and case management counselling to ensure that their transition to civilian life is at least as smooth and successful as that of their war veteran forebears at the end of the Second World War and Korea.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Physicians from the Royal 22nd Regiment whom we met told us that, in the case of guys returning to Canada suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, it was psychological, not physical, rehabilitation that was causing problems.

We have to ask ourselves whether we have enough psychiatrists and psychologists to help these young people. A young man, 21 years old, committed suicide in Quebec about two weeks ago. The government quickly invested $1.5 million. I believe that will have very little effect. Physical rehabilitation is all well and good, but you also have to think of psychological rehabilitation.

[Darragh Mogan]

Monsieur Gaudet, we couldn't agree with you more. Part of the rehabilitation program that was approved as the new veterans charter was for psychological rehabilitation. Up to the time I checked most recently, the majority of individuals who are coming into the rehabilitation program are coming in for psychological reasons. It's very important to have that kind of capacity, because you don't want to have someone enter a vocational rehabilitation program and, as they say in English, set themselves up for failure when they're not psychologically ready to take that on.

Secondly, we have an extensive network of clinics, between National Defence and ourselves, and we have more that I could brief you on. We could provide you with an independent briefing—maybe we should—on our mental health strategy to provide a fuller answer to the member's question.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

Now back to the Conservative Party with Mr. Sweet, for five minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your presentation earlier.

Mr. Miller, or maybe Mr. Mogan actually, answered a question that was asked by Mr. Boshcoff, and I want to clarify something.

You mentioned that the review was a political decision, but then you said you still had work to do that you were going to deliver within a timeframe of the fall. That's what our concern is, the work that needs to be done for the minister to make that decision. You said that you are on track. Is that correct?