Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 20th, 2007

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Are we out of in camera?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Yes, we're out of in camera.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I have a notice of motion. I'll have the clerk have it sent out today, but this is the verbal. It would be very much like the one Mr. Valley had--that we arrange a study tour to visit the bases within Canada where our armed forces are deployed and returned to. So we can have that opportunity to have a discussion, to arrange a study tour of operations. That would be the basis of it, that we would do our Canadian bases.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right, so I'm assuming therefore probably Tuesday we would deal with that.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thursday.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

That's right. It is Tuesday. My, how the week flies. Fair enough. So we have a heads-up about that.

Now we're into our veterans independence program health care review. On a tangential point for a second, if I may, because there have been some issues raised in the House of Commons with regard to extension of benefits to widows, etc., I was expecting we'd get more questions on that, frankly, and was surprised we didn't. Maybe you didn't feel those were the appropriate witnesses to ask.

[Albina Guarnieri, Liberal, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

We can always oblige.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I was surprised. That was what I was expecting. That being the case, here are some other people we can have on the subject. We'll start at the top here. Someone from ANAVETS--we don't know who the someone is, but the person is soon to be determined. We don't have a date on that in terms of their availability.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Alexandre Roger]

No, not that one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Then there's Ron Griffis, national president, Canadian Association for Veterans of United Nations on Peacekeeping, December 13, which is still a while away, but fair enough. Then we have Jean McMillan and Brian Forbes, assistant director, administration, National Service Bureau, The War Amputations of Canada. There's no date for that. We don't know. And there's Don Ethell, Gulf War Veterans Association of Canada, who once again is available as of the 13th.

Okay, and then some other witnesses are proposed by Veterans Affairs.

Mrs. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I have a couple that you might want to consider.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Is it okay if we add those at the end of the list?

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Sure, whatever you like.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Dr. Hollander, GAC member--I always love those acronyms--health services research, evaluation, and administration expert, December 4. That's a little sooner.

Dr. Pedlar, director of research, December 4. Dr. Mary Alpeter--it doesn't have a date on that either. And you did try to reach Jean-Guy Soulière? He said no. There you go. Let's just pretend he's not even on that list. Scratch him right off.

Mrs. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

There's often discussion on the makeup of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board, and we might want to have Victor Marchand appear; the other person might be Dale Sharkey, who's the executive director of VRAB. I understand that for privacy reasons we can't invite new members of the board, but we probably could invite these two people to have discussions on the changes and the direction VRAB is taking.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right. I don't know whose hand was up first. I'll let you gentlemen be the determinators.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I defer to Mr. Sweet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

We have pinpointed in our investigation of PTSD one crucial element, and that is, there are not enough psychologists, psychiatrists, and counsellors in Veterans Affairs in order to be able to service veterans. It's only going to get worse; it's not going to get better, and we've identified that.

Are there any witnesses the clerk may be able to find who would give us an idea about possible strategies we could recommend, for example, with respect to folks in colleges, for counsellors, or in universities, for psychologists and psychiatrists? We could recommend some strategy by hearing witnesses and hearing their proposals and some expertise that's outside of the boundaries of the.... I don't know how long it takes once a candidate is in these academic institutions before they're capable of taking part. I'm not aware of how long it takes to produce the expertise for a counsellor.

One of the things I don't believe we have on record as far as treating veterans with PTSD is exactly where the biggest vacuums are. Can we fill most of the void with counsellors, or do we actually need a vast array of highly trained psychiatrists for this? I think that's an invaluable thing we could do for VAC and get on record here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Sweet. I think that's an interesting idea.

Mr. Valley.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank my colleagues for the good ideas.

We probably can come up with a couple more names we would like to submit to you, or bring up at the next meeting. It's good we're reaching out as far as we can. If we cast the net wide, we might catch somebody of great interest. Thanks to my colleagues, and we will get back to you with some names we'd like to submit.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Yes, to the clerk; he's the full-time guy on this.

Mrs. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

This is not about witnesses, although I'm getting a feeling throughout the room, and it's certainly something I feel very strongly about. I'd like to run it past the committee to see if anybody would also like to consider it.

We did have a bit of a session on post-traumatic stress syndrome. I know that everyone of us in this room is very interested in what we learned and what we heard. I'd like to see the review we have already undertaken completed as soon as possible so we can move forward and make improvements to the veterans independence program through the health care review.

I'm wondering if there's an appetite in this room, in light of some of the things that have happened and in light of some of the things that have been said today, to look into the aspect of suicide. My understanding, from the few questions I've asked today, is that we don't track them as a country. Canada has never tracked how many suicides happen as a result of military deployment, etc. I know it is tracked in the United States, and the numbers are frightening.

I would like to know if there is a will in this room to go down that road after we finish the health care review so we can move our current traditional veterans ahead. Get this done and out of the way, and then have a good hard look at what's happening with our modern-day veterans and the kinds of things they're facing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Sounds like a worthwhile endeavour.

Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

To respond to Betty Hinton, I'm going to point out that there are no files on people who commit suicide. I know of 20 cases. I have a list of some 40 individuals for Quebec, the last being Major Michel Desjardins. He committed suicide in late September or early October. That 50-year-old man was under treatment at Sainte-Anne Hospital, in Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue. Yes there's a large number of them, and it's more than frightening.

Going back to what was said at the outset about including people in the list. In response to the concern expressed by David Sweet, I would say it's possible to contact the Association des psychologues du Québec. It represents a large number of psychologists. Perhaps those people would know more about the question. I'm sure its representatives would come and testify.

Are we going to discuss problems relating to veterans? If so, Jennifer Migneaut, who has become a prominent specialist on veterans forms, could come and tell us about the problems that entails. She got involved in the field about two or three years ago, when her husband wanted to file an application.

She said it was complicated and infeasible. We could invite her to come and explain to us in what way completing an application form for veterans assistance is complicated. If you're interested in that, I have her contact information.