Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 8th, 2009

[Carletta Matheson]

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

The finish date, I understand, was to make sure that anybody who was in the application process still had time to finish it before it was closed off. You're talking about when it was actually started as being the most critical date.

[Carletta Matheson]

No, I'm talking about the access as well. There have been many, many names go through that after the date--even until June, July, and November. This is what I'm getting at. I want to know where the fairness is. We were at the front door; they were at the back door. They slid through, and we had the door slammed in our face. Now, they're still paying people and they won't even come close to us. That's not fair.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

All right. Is that it?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I know it always goes fast.

We're now going on to the Liberal Party for five minutes.

Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all our guests, our witnesses, for being with us today. I think we will trip over ourselves thanking you, so I'm not going to waste time on that.

I actually may get in trouble with my political bosses for saying this, but I also do want to extend some good consideration to the Conservative government for having opened the door on this compensation. I think that needs to be recognized as good work. I think that's part of the story. What you're now talking about is the rest of the story.

As I've come to know this story--and I'm still new at this and still gathering more information on it--there are several issues around agent orange. This is only one very specific issue that has to do, obviously, with those who have had husbands die before 2006, when this date was arbitrarily set.

I might challenge my Conservative members to find another date, another time where any program has actually been arbitrarily set at the date of a government being sworn in. I actually have never heard of that, ever. It seems to be quite unusual and rather political and, I think, not very helpful.

The thing I would like to focus on and get more information on is your relationship with Veterans Affairs Canada and maybe DND and the kinds of bureaucratic problems that you've had. You've suggested some of them and your experience of trying to get through the system. You've raised some issues I have not heard of before, especially through Ms. Matheson's freedom of information request. Can you explain a little more about your problems in dealing with the actual department officials, which we may be able to help with?

[Bette Jean Hudson]

Right.

There are many problems with getting through the bureaucracy. You feel as if there is no real interest in your case. You'll call Veterans Affairs, tell them your name, and the next time you call, you get somebody else and you have to repeat your whole story all over again. They're constantly losing forms and letters: “That was lost. We can't find it, so you need to resubmit that.” So you go to get the doctor's signature, you pay $50, you run and get these forms, and you call or you mail them in.

There's something odd about this as well. I sent for my agent orange pension form. It was sent to me. Any doings I have had with Veterans Affairs were either in Charlottetown or Saint John, New Brunswick. But when I got my forms, I was to send them to Campbellton.

I sent them to Campbellton, which was weird to me, because I had always dealt with either Charlottetown or Saint John. Why did I have to send my forms there? Well, it was a new office, or whatever. So I sent them there. I have not received anything--or yes, I did; I received a letter telling me it would be 24 weeks before I would hear about this pension. Well, I haven't heard anything yet.

It just seems to me that to get anything done through Veterans Affairs you need to, please, get one person to look after so many people, rather than have us get somebody different every time and have to repeat, over and over again. Your letters get lost; your forms become lost. For example, one of the widows was told, “You can't apply for that pension; you have to be ill.” It's things like this.

Or imagine receiving a letter addressed to your deceased husband. It just opens the wound all over again. It's a sad situation. We've had two or three widows receive letters addressed to their deceased husbands. How horrible is that!

Here is another thing. One widow was told, “Now, you just watch what you're saying to me. Don't you talk to me like that.” Well, this lady is in her eighties. She doesn't need to be talked to like that. Treat these people with respect. We're respectful to Veterans Affairs; they have to be respectful to us. It isn't right to be treated that way.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I was just going to ask, have any of you—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Your time is up. It's now six minutes, and it was a five-minute round. I know, it always flies.

We now go over to the Conservative Party, to Mr. Storseth for five minutes.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming forward today. I would particularly like to thank you for the self-sacrifice and dedication that your husbands, you yourselves, and your families have made for our country. Having family members who have served in Gagetown, I know the sacrifice it takes for not just the servicemen and servicewomen, but also the families helping.

This is troubling because, having had family serving there, I've obviously heard the stories and know much of what's happened, and I actually know many people who still live in Gagetown. But in dealing with this and in discussing it around the kitchen table, oftentimes what I've been told by my family members was that it's not so much the compensation amount, but the recognition of the wrongs that happened, the recognition of the problems that were discovered through this, and really, the generally appalling nature of what happened.

Is that the main, driving issue that you're looking to bring forward in this?

[Margaret Hogan]

Yes, it is. How can you make people sick and not apologize or acknowledge in apology? We lost loved ones, and everyone agrees that this is a tragedy, but nobody will stand up to say we are sorry that your loved ones are dead, sick, or dying; we are sorry that we killed your husband through the use of pesticides.

We're not getting that. We're getting the acknowledgment that it is a travesty, but no one will say “I'm sorry” or be accountable for it. There's nothing. We know you yourselves didn't personally go out and spray it; however, the Government of Canada approved it. They sprayed it. So we need an apology. We need to know that they did not die and suffer in vain; that they will be acknowledged and respected.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Unfortunately, in our system, when there are court cases and other things, they sometimes limit the ability of government to speak frankly and openly. I think it is important to what you're doing to bring forward this issue and to make sure it is recognized and that the travesty that happened in this case is recognized. As was brought up earlier, it's not just in Gagetown.

How many thousands of people are we talking about, in your minds? There are 2,700 who have received something. How many thousands of people are we talking about, in your minds?

[Bette Jean Hudson]

Well, it's difficult to say, because I believe a lot of these people are spread from coast to coast in the country. After they left Gagetown...if they're not dead, they're probably in all provinces of Canada. I wouldn't be able to speculate on how many hundreds of people we're talking about, but I know we are talking about hundreds, if not thousands.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

If Mr. Stoffer wants to make a comment, maybe he could just make it, rather than pass it down the line.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I'm sorry. I was advising Ms. Bartlett of figures that were given before by previous governments.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

What are those figures?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

They could be up to 300,000.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Up to 300,000? That is a lot of people, I think we all agree.

Before my time is up, although I want to get to that matter, I want to say that I understand how difficult it can be to deal with a federal bureaucracy at times. It's often like running into a brick wall. In my experience, dealing with Veterans Affairs is generally better than dealing with most other parts of the bureaucracy, but certainly everybody here at this table understands and everybody at home understands and sympathizes with how difficult it can be to deal with a bureaucracy as large as we have with the Government of Canada.

When we're talking about potentially up to 300,000 people, obviously if you were to set up this program, you would have to put some dates in place. Or would you just leave it wide open, from the beginning of when this started to happen until...? On what date would you close it off?

Obviously there are problems with implementation; there always are, in anything you do. With the residential school apology, one of the biggest things to happen in our country in the last five years, it was great. The acknowledgment was there on behalf of the Government of Canada, and first nations people in my community who were affected were touched by it. But there were still people left out in the actual implementation of it.

What dates would you recommend for the implementation?

[Carletta Matheson]

When it came out, it was fair enough, I guess. I don't know; I'm not the one to say. But what really bothers me—and I'll go through it again, and it's still not fair—is that he stood there and he said point blank: “Dates—d-a-t-e-s—will never change. It's carved in stone.” One was slammed, one was opened; figure it out.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

But what would you pick for dates, if it were up to you? It's a tough decision. I think we can recognize that it was a very difficult decision.

[Carletta Matheson]

I'm not a politician; I have no idea about this side of it. But I still think it's very unfair.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Well, I thank you very much for your time and for coming forward.

[Margaret Hogan]

I would like to make a comment, if I could.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Madam Hogan.

[Margaret Hogan]

You referred to the apology to the first nations people for the suffering they went through. People need to realize that an acknowledgement and apology will help us with closure and help us to continue and allow us to know that we're not fighting in vain. We're not going away. We're not. The acknowledgement and apology is what is needed to help our healing.

Thank you.