Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 8th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam Hogan.

Now we go on to Monsieur Gaudet, pour cinq minutes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you very much.

Generally, at the Committee on Veterans Affairs, there's no partisanship but it would seem that your illness must not be affecting public opinion because as soon as public opinion reaches government... If you take for instance what happened in the Maher Arar case, we see there have been apologies, he has received millions of dollars. Public opinion got involved. You referred to aboriginals earlier on. The Japanese also received an apology and compensation for what happened to them during the Second World War. It would seem that public opinion is not behind you. It reminds me of Shannon, in Quebec, and its tainted water. It's as though public opinion is absent, that you're going nowhere, that governments are not interested in you.

Earlier on my colleague, the parliamentary secretary, said that you were only expecting $20,000. That is nothing to my mind. Ms. Hudson, you have said you have had many problems. You listed eight of them in your letter, but I think it is in that respect that you are trying to find solutions, far more than the $20,000.

[A voice]

A public apology.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I am in agreement for calling for a public apology, but in your presentation you said that only part of your recommendations to the department had to do with responsibility for your problems. Tell me about the other parts? You've listed eight here, but you say you sent in a number of others. Would it be possible for the committee to receive them, for each committee member to receive them as well?

[Bette Jean Hudson]

Yes, we certainly can. We have them with us, but I don't know if we have enough copies today. We can certainly get them to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Just a moment there, Mr. Gaudet, I'll just instruct the witnesses.

If you send that copy to the clerk, it will be translated into both official languages and then it will be distributed to the committee members.

Thank you.

[Bette Jean Hudson]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Proceed, Mr. Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Could you tell me about the other recommendations you've made that are not listed here but are also very important?

[Bette Jean Hudson]

Do you want to hear them all? Do you have any at all?

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

No, but tell us about a few that are important to you.

[Bette Jean Hudson]

The most important one to me is the apology, because as you said, $20,000 is nothing. There wouldn't be any amount of money anyone could give me to compensate for my husband, so an apology is very, very important to me.

But here are our demands:

One, compensate every widow fairly for the early death of their husbands who died with agent orange-related diseases.

Two, immediately convene a public judicial inquiry into the agent orange tragedy at CFB Gagetown.

Three, remove Mr. Thompson as Minister of Veterans Affairs, as he has not fulfilled the mission statement of the Department of Veterans Affairs, which states and I quote:

To provide exemplary, client-centred services and benefits that respond to the needs of veterans, our other clients and their families, in recognition of their services to Canada; and to keep the memory of their achievements and sacrifices alive for all Canadians.

Four, apologize to each and every widow, whose loss cannot be measured, to admit to us that the Canadian government did a great disservice to all victims of the spray program.

Five, launch an immediate investigation into the dispersal of ex gratia payments—that is, decisions as to who received the cheques, who was denied, and why. Why were the years 1966 and 1967 designated when we know spraying took place between 1956 and 1984?

Six, investigate the Department of Veterans Affairs itself, as it has shown it is a bureaucracy comprised of people who regard us as unworthy and treat us in an undignified manner.

Seven, let proven illness and diseases be qualifiers, not only those listed on the agent orange ex gratia application form.

Eight, give an acknowledgement and a display of respect for all husbands—military and civilian—who died, and who died before the Harper power date.

[Margaret Hogan]

Nine, provide compensation from the government for their part—in other years prior to and post-1966-67—in the chemical spraying at CFB Gagetown.

Ten, send a letter of apology from the independent affiliate to the widows whom he offended with rude remarks and argumentative tones during various late-night conversations on the telephone.

Eleven--and this is so important and key--all who sit in the House observe one minute of silence to show respect, dignity, and compassion for our late husbands' suffering as a result of this spraying. That's one minute of silence.

Twelve, test for dioxins on property and in water sources at CFB Gagetown and surrounding areas with an open, public-issued true report, the cost of such testing to be assumed by the Government of Canada.

Thirteen, provide full disclosure as to where the money came from for the ex gratia payment for agent orange. Did it come from the Government of Canada? Did it come from the Americans? Did it come from the chemical company? Where exactly did that money come from?

Fourteen, make a detailed statistical report on the medical conditions and diseases. Which were paid for and which ones were rejected?

Fifteen, provide a statistical report on the number of appeals that were successful versus those appeals that were not, also broken down by gender and age.

The above demands are not unreasonable to meet at all, as it's time we had an open, honest government accountable to us, the widows, and to all Canadians who knew and loved our husbands, fathers, sons, brothers, aunts, mothers, families who have been destroyed. People have been unknowingly poisoned, and illnesses, conditions, diseases, and deaths have plagued our families. More than a generation has been affected.

The Government of Canada needs to be accountable for its part in the agent orange spraying program and other chemicals at CFB Gagetown. We are here for our husbands. We are here for our loved ones. We are here fighting for the rights of our husbands and loved ones, as they no longer can. We, the Widows on a Warpath, are able to stand up for what is right, and it is time the Government of Canada did the same.

Always remember that you were human first before you came into politics.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam Hogan and Mr. Gaudet.

We'll go to the Conservative Party and Mr. Mayes, for five minutes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies, thank you for being here today.

In 2006 when I was first elected, I was put on this veterans affairs committee, and I think there are only four of us from that original new government committee--me, Mr. Stoffer, Mr. Gaudet, and Mr. Sweet. As a new member of this committee, I was quite excited that our minister and our government was moving forward with a veterans charter to better serve the needs of veterans. We also started on putting together an Office of the Veterans Ombudsman to assist veterans as they move forward trying to get a voice to get benefits. Then our government also supported extending the veterans independence program and added $350 million. That was all under the leadership of this committee and our minister, and I think the minister has veterans and those who serve Canadians at heart.

One thing about leadership is that it's about taking responsibility, even responsibility for bad public policy. Governments have had bad public policy. I can tell you, within two years of our government coming into being government, we did the Indian residential schools settlement. We did the Chinese tax settlement. We did the tainted blood settlement. These are outstanding items. There was also the agent orange. Those weren't compensations; they were settlements, saying, okay, there was bad public policy. But to go back and try to figure out the individual impact on lives is very difficult, because you can't measure some of that. It is so catastrophic for people.

I talked with a first nations chief. He told me he didn't know how to be a father. He was in a residential school. He was never mentored by a father, because he was in a school situation and taken away from his family. How do you compensate for those things?

It's similar with this issue here. The people who established the $20,000 are not mean people or bad people. They looked at the situation and tried their best to make these tough decisions. And dates have to be set. My mother-in-law was interned in a Japanese internment camp, and some of the stories and about the loss of life of family members there... They were compensated. Was that enough? No, it wasn't compensation. It was simply a recognition of bad government policy. It was a recognition, in making that statement, that we apologize. It was bad policy. We know it's wrong today, but it's so difficult to go back and really heal those wounds that you feel. What is enough? How long in the future do we go to compensate that or to even acknowledge it? You can't. It's impossible.

It's unfortunate these dates didn't necessarily align with some of the issues of each individual person who was involved with Gagetown, but dates have to be set. I've heard there are issues for people even with regard to the tainted blood settlement. But ultimately, we have to make those decisions.

As my colleague said, what would you suggest as a date? You really didn't suggest a date, because you realize how difficult it is to make that determination.

One of the things I would like to ask is, do any of you receive any benefit from Veterans Affairs other than what you're looking for here, in terms of compensation? During the time your spouse was alive, were you able to apply for any of those benefits, for instance, the veterans independence program, to assist you in staying in your own home, those types of things?

[Carletta Matheson]

No.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay, that's available now.

[Margaret Hogan]

Where would a civilian go for that aspect of it?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You're right; it's extended to those who have served.

[Bette Jean Hudson]

Pardon me, if you're discussing half of our husbands' military pension after death, yes, I received that.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Do you receive any other benefit through the--

[Bette Jean Hudson]

I receive half of his disability pension. It's $72.40 a month. Now, my husband paid into his pension for his whole army career, so that's his money, right? I get half of his military pension, half of his disability, so I get $72 a month, but I have not applied for supplements.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you. We are trying to do our best to serve those who have served our country.

[Margaret Hogan]

I would like to make a comment, if I could.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Mayes.

I'll come to you in just a second, Madam Hogan.

Madam Matheson, you had a comment, but your mike wasn't on, so it wouldn't be on the record. Do you want to go ahead?