Veterans Affairs Committee on April 1st, 2010

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

I can't say that for every single one, but the position of the caucus as a whole is that they support our position.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay.

In regard to Mr. Stoffer's example, you mentioned that it wouldn't be fair to answer, and I agree with you. It wouldn't be fair to answer because you don't have all the details. If Mr. Stoffer were to give you all the details, could you endeavour to answer his question, and to reply to the committee clerk in writing, first of all to acknowledge whether or not the situation is unfair, once you've analyzed it?

Mr. Stoffer is also asking if you could provide recommendations on what we might look at doing to deal with that unfairness.

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

For that specific case, I think, if I were provided the information, we would review that case specifically with all its components. I couldn't comment on whether that person had been treated unfairly or not, but we could surely review the case in its entirety, with the numbers, and go where it would take us.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I've stopped your time there just to make a comment. This is not a usual request for a personal case. I'd just caution the members who are asking to make sure that all the personal releases are signed before it comes before this committee, considering the privacy laws.

Yes, Mr. Stoffer, on this point?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

On this point, it's in the blues of our record. Mr. O'Handley was here and presented that case to us. I just wanted to let you know, just for his sake, that there's nothing wrong here. There are legislative changes that have to happen. The question of fairness is always debatable, but the government is not doing anything wrong. It's the legislation that we need to look at in the future.

Sorry to interrupt.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Okay. I'm sorry for the interruption, Mr. Bagnell.

You can resume.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So you will get back to us?

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

I'm sorry, but now I'm a little confused. I'm going to get back to the committee on...?

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay. First of all, it would be on the situation--you don't have to use the person's name, but just the details of that situation--and whether you agree with Mr. Stoffer that it's unfair to the individual. It's not the best situation that could exist legislatively, as he says, in present law. Second of all, we're looking for any recommendations you might have for the committee as to how we could change the laws so that a person in that situation would be treated better or more fairly.

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

Okay.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

I'm going to share the rest of my time with Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I just wanted to ask a question—related to PTSD, but not necessarily—with respect to suicide and whether the RCMP is able to keep or does keep statistics with respect to either members or retired members and the incidence of suicide.

[Supt Rich Boughen]

No, we don't keep the statistics. Right now, our human resources computer system doesn't do that for us. It's something we're asking for. We do know anecdotally that our rates are quite low. One is too many. We understand that. As far as veterans are concerned, we don't keep those types of statistics.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I thought that would be difficult. One of our problems is that even though rates in the military are low, I think they're actually high, given the fact that it's a screened workforce. The screening you need to do to become either a member of the military forces or an RCMP officer is higher than it is for the average population. I would just encourage you to do that.

Second, I wanted to ask about your experience with the network of OSI clinics in Canada in terms of access rates and whether you are satisfied with the experience the RCMP is having with access to that network. I believe there are 19 clinics.

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

We're just beginning the process of having our members access those clinics. I'm sure that Rich has more details.

[Supt Rich Boughen]

Our rates of access are very low right now, not because the need isn't there, but mostly out of a lack of communication from me outward. That's something that was identified in other questions during the last Senate committee we attended. It's just a matter of being able to communicate better to our membership--as well as our released members--that these programs are available to them.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Superintendent.

Now we'll move on to Mr. Lobb for five minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you.

A number of years ago, a decision was made to not go in completely with the new veterans charter. For the committee's benefit, can you tell me what specific pieces are in the existing suite of packages that did not make it tenable to join forces with the new veterans charter?

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

On the specific elements, I can't answer. I don't know the answer. Rich may want to comment.

[Supt Rich Boughen]

Sure.

I think the framing around that has to be correct. The RCMP experience is much different, so it's not a matter of good or bad, and it's not a matter of saying that what the new veterans charter offered wasn't good enough or wasn't suitable for certain segments of the Canadian workforce or the CF.

What we decided as an organization was to look upon everything as a large equation. When we started doing the 20 scenarios, it worked out, based on our demographics, our work experience, the age of release, and the severity of the disabilities--all that kind of stuff put together. So it wasn't just one thing. There were things offered in both that had us saying that if we were only going over there for this, we were already getting it over here. So in the big equation, it just worked out.

There wasn't one specific thing that was the tipping point, because our experience is different from that of the CF. For your purposes, I would think that it would really depend on what the CF or VAC itself is letting you know about what the issues are. Because with us, again, since 2006, we really haven't delved into it, and up until that time, it met our needs 19 times out of 20, so 5% of the time it didn't.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I'm not being critical at all. It's just that for a lot of the things I've heard today, Veterans Affairs has made a pretty significant investment in them over the last five or six years, on post-traumatic stress and OSI clinics. It just seems to me there could have been some opportunities, but I guess hindsight is 20/20 on that front.

I think the number of people who are receiving disability right now is a little over 8,000 and their average age is 58. Do you have further details on that? How long has the average person been on disability? Is it 20 years, 10 years, or 5 years?

[Supt Rich Boughen]

I don't have that information.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Do you have a percentage for how many people are discharged and their success rate? Is it a 50% success rate to be able to transition somebody back in?

[Supt Rich Boughen]

What's your definition of “success rate”? I'm not too clear on that.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

They're receiving a disability payment today because of some disability. However, through the rehabilitation program, whether it's counselling, therapy, or new training, they're able to be fully employed again. Obviously that's one of the mandates through Veterans Affairs--if possible. I'm just curious if that's in there as well.