Veterans Affairs Committee on April 1st, 2010

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Okay.

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

Is there likely more prevention? Yes, but I disagree that no prevention is being done.

The third question had to do with our recommendation. The mandate we were given was to define workplace wellness. That also involves really targeting what that means and determining how to implement it.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Tousignant, when we talk about workplace health and safety, the objective is to prevent injuries.

I will give you a complete definition. Let's say that the car seats in an RCMP officer's vehicle are inadequate and need to be changed. That is prevention in order to prevent back pain or any resulting claims. That is what workplace health and safety is.

Prevention means recognizing the problem, identifying it and finding a solution to keep other injuries from happening. That is the point I am trying to make.

Do you have that kind of prevention, or when you talk about workplace health and safety, do you wait until there is a claim, you process it, and it ends there?

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

It exists...

[Supt Rich Boughen]

Thanks for clarifying that. I think what you're getting at is this. Any time there is a hazardous situation, an accident, or a situation where, for example, people are saying that their vests aren't good enough and they're creating a hazard, they have the ability to go to our staff relations representative. They have the ability to report that through appropriate channels on what we call a form 3414; it's a report to the occupational health and safety branch that there is a hazard or an issue, so that we can prevent it in the future--absolutely.

Is there a specific budget for that? No. It falls under a chain of command where we're going from a specific small area to where the issue might be all the way up to our branch. We submit reports to HRSDC on a regular basis with regard to those types of things.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Superintendent.

Mr. Lobb, do you have one question?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I have two questions.

Just for clarification--and forgive me for not knowing--when an RCMP member is receiving a disability award, a disability pension, are CPP deductions taken from the pension payouts?

[Supt Rich Boughen]

Just so I understand, you're saying that if somebody's getting a pension.... A medical pension?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That's correct, like one of the 8,000 who are currently disabled—

[Supt Rich Boughen]

Okay. And discharged...? Are you talking about somebody who's discharged?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Well, no, because I guess where I'm coming from is that you mentioned that a number who are considered disabled are actually working within the RCMP.

[Supt Rich Boughen]

That's correct.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I was just trying to clarify that if someone who is disabled is receiving a disability pension and working for the RCMP, because that's the--

[Supt Rich Boughen]

Yes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Okay. Would those particular people have Canada pension deductions taken off their paycheques?

[Supt Rich Boughen]

I don't know that.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

In my mind, and I could be wrong, as I'm not a financial planner, it seems to me that if they're okay to work and they can earn a full wage, it would seem better, in their interests, to earn the wage and not be on the pension. Because they would have the CPP deductions coming off their paycheques, and when they retire and turn 60, their Canada pension amount would be more. Now, I don't know exactly how the clawback from a pension would work. Are there any thoughts on that? It may be too detailed--

[Supt Rich Boughen]

Part of it.... It kind of deals with the compensation area more than the health part of it. The disability pensions can go from 5% to 100%. You could get a 5% disability and just have a hearing aid, so you're absolutely functional at work, or you could have an elbow injury, which is a an issue of loss of quality of life. It doesn't necessarily translate into what you can or cannot do at work. It might, but not necessarily.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Here's my last question. I think it's for the benefit of the public interest. While the RCMP is definitely embarking on a wellness platform to continue to help these people, Veterans Affairs has also made a significant investment already, so what practices has the RCMP set up to work in conjunction with Veterans Affairs, to not duplicate resources, to not increase red tape? I wonder what synergies are being put into place today.

[Supt Rich Boughen]

We're part of several committees with both Veterans Affairs Canada and the CF. We're on their VAC-DND steering committee. We participate in their mental health advisory committee, the joint network of operational stress injury clinics, and OSISS, the operational stress injury social support system. We're connected with them in numerous ways through regular meetings with them on other programs, like the federal health care partnership, etc.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That's good to hear. Hopefully that line of communication will continue, because I think there's certainly great benefit in it.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Lobb.

Thank you, superintendent.

If you'll indulge me, I just have two quick questions.

One, you mentioned the take-up of OSISS clinics by your members. Do you have a struggle similar to that of the CF in fighting a culture that doesn't admit this kind of injury?

[Supt Rich Boughen]

Yes, for sure. I think that for a lot of that stigma, through a change in generations and through acceptance, through the CF's efforts to really reduce the stigma, we're also benefiting from that. We're also individually a lot tougher on our ourselves about self-stigma than what others would put on us in that regard. But there absolutely still is a stigma, and we can do a better job of de-stigmatizing issues around occupational stress injuries or mental health in general.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I have one other quick question. You mentioned that there's some good collaboration with VAC and the CF. Are you collaborating with any other police departments, whether in this nation or others, regarding PTSD and the need to get data regarding it?

[Supt Rich Boughen]

Yes. One of the people I work with is a counselling psychologist, a registered psychologist with a Ph.D., in B.C., as well as a staff sergeant in our outfit. Through his various associations, he has connected us with the National Centre for PTSD, as well as other areas in Canada and the States with regard to that. We've also had mental health experts working with us who have connected us with different government agencies and with educational institutions, such as McMaster and Simon Fraser University.