Veterans Affairs Committee on March 26th, 2013

[Jean-Rodrigue Paré]

No.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

Were the munitions stored?

[Jean-Rodrigue Paré]

Yes.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

I'm sorry, they didn't know what DU could or could not do, so they did a decontamination exercise.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

It was a preventive exercise.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Yes, sir, that's the right word.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

Thank you very much. I was not aware of that.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

That's just for clarification.

Thank you.

We'll move to Mr. Zimmer. We're shortening it down to four minutes to get in as many people as possible.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Thank you, Doctor, for being here as well.

My son is in air cadets right now, trying to do what you have already done. Your service is appreciated. Sometimes I wish I were you. To actually get to fly those planes is an amazing thing.

I have a question for you basically about the difference between studies on animals and studies on humans. The report made little mention of that. Could you explain the differences, other than the obvious, between an animal study and a human study?

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

I'm not sure what you consider to be obvious when it comes to animals in scientific research. It's not that we did not look at them. There's a vast literature on animal research.

I'll just go back to explain. There's animal research. There is also pure in vitro research; in vitro means in the laboratory, on living cells or insects. Those are the first studies. Then they move on with their findings and apply that to more complicated living organisms like animals, laboratory rats, monkeys, baboons, dogs, and so on. They try to further elucidate their hypotheses. Then finally it comes to humans where it's applied. That's what you usually see with new drugs.

We looked at those animal studies, the ones that were related mostly to the likely candidates for diseases. For example, Dr. McDiarmid did not mention that she was concerned, and her group was concerned with the possible development of cancer in the muscle tissue near the depleted uranium fragments. Studies were made to clear that up. They injected pellets, lots of them, big pellets, a much larger load to the animals, the rats, than would be experienced with the soldiers who had these buried fragments. These animals were looked at. Also, with that higher load, what did it mean? What happened to the animals? Did they develop cancer? We looked at them. There were also a number of studies way back in the 1940s when uranium was used. I'm switching from depleted uranium now to uranium. Yes, they developed lung cancer, fibrosis. I had mentioned earlier in previous testimony that with massive loads of uranium, yes, they had toxicological effects on the kidneys, for sure.

The reason you can't take animal studies and extrapolate them or transpose them to the human situation is the interspecies difficulties. You just can't. They don't behave in the same way. They're close, but not close enough. Even in the animal species, there are differences between how baboons would react, or the mice, so they developed certain strains of mice and so on. It's very sophisticated.

I hope I've answered your question.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Sure.

I have one last question, since my time is short. You referred to these already. Do you have any other recommendations or scientific suggestions at this point?

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

I've grouped them under four recommendations.

I'll leave it to you, Mr. Stoffer, to give me the go-ahead for the recommendations.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

We'll get that in the conclusion. How's that, because the time is up. That way it'll be a good wrap-up to our meeting.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

They're more in the sense of looking forward, the way ahead kinds of recommendations.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

I look forward to that near the end of our session.

Mr. Casey, please.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Dr. Morisset, welcome back. I'm frankly surprised to see you here.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

I am, too.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

That was going to be my first question. You should know that we've now had more time with you before the committee than we've spent studying the budget cuts to Veterans Affairs.

When you say that you're surprised to be here, please tell me how it came about. I take it, by your comment, that it wasn't your idea.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

I'm sorry, do you mean to be here for a third time?

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Yes.

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

I have to be careful. I thought that you heard the evidence and I wasn't sure about coming back a third time. My mind wasn't framed in that way, that's all. It's not that I was disappointed but I thought that the process would be one meeting in camera, and another one to testify. I hadn't thought that I would be recalled a third time, but that's fine. I'm not apprehensive about that.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

So your appearance here is not at your own instance, but at the invitation of someone who set the witness list. It wasn't your idea?

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

No, no. I responded to documentation from Madame Corbin, your clerk, to appear. I didn't ask. I didn't beg to come here, if that's your question.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Given that, Mr. Chair, I'm going to hereby provide notice to the committee that I'd like the committee to accept the request of Louise Richard to be invited back as well. I understand she has made that request.

Doctor, in the course of your study.... I know that you take exception to some questions that I asked with respect to—

[Dr. Pierre Morisset]

I didn't identify you, but you're self-identifying. I'm sorry. What I said was I wasn't sure if I understood you properly. That's what I said and I just wanted to clarify why we did not do that.